I was doing some research on tithing, earlier today, and came across some very interesting observations. If anyone wishes to comment on these, let the sparks start flying:

Abraham and Jacob gave a tenth of what they had - once. It was not a repeated deal. The Tithe has specific rules and is reserved for specific purposes, none of which can be obeyed in the church since none of the circumstances exist. If you choose to give 10 percent in faith, in response to what God has done in your life, that’s fine. But the instant you make it a demand and a requirement, you have passed from grace to law. If you want to give 30 percent or your income, that’s fine. But the instant you make it a demand and a requirement, you have passed from grace into law. And the two simply do not mix.

A church might not get “enough” money if they don’t require tithing? Hey, maybe that church shouldn’t exist. Or perhaps the pastor should be willing to - oh, I don’t know - GET A JOB like paul, to support himself. You don’t have a building? Rent a hall, as small a hall as the offerings will support. And if they are enough to support one at all, then maybe the group SHOULD cease to exist.

Most folks who push tithes generally promote the ideas that a church has to have a building, the pastor has to be full time, and they (the church) has to have a lot of money to do things in the neighborhood as a church organization. I suspect you would be hard pressed to show me any of these ideas in the New Testament. Sure an ox should be fed, but it doesn’t say he has to be fed vintage hay.

The tithe comes in the form of pressure…..

Prior to accepting the offering….”All the tithers please stand”…..

Now how is a novice to articulate what is occuring before them when the are sitting and those whom are giving are commended to stand?

So this is not some store front-church type of pressure tactic.

The pressure comes when the pracher reaches series’ on the tithe, preaching “first-fruits” or God won’t bless you….you will be cursed with a curse……

Pressure comes in the form of churches NOT assiting individuals monetarily unless they access their financials and tithe records prior to considering such……

Pressure comes in the form of conforming to the church “vision” or agenda…..or be left behind and chastised among your leaders/peers accordingly (to their interpretation of the Word)……

Now for the last time, the Bible instructs us to give to support the ministry. I’m not sure how many times that have been mentioned. And yes, if a person has the MEANS to give, but doesn’t, then they are acting in rebellion against God. But please lets not limit this to not tithing or giving to the church. What about the poor? What about folk that are less fortunate than yourself that are outside of the church building? Doesn’t that hold some relevance?

Pastor Arlee Turner Jr.

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Amen Brother Turner. Not many can see this but we have been down this road before. Many will argue against the scripture that clearly shows tithing as law. Many will declare that Jesus commanded us to pay tithes. Thank the Lord for the understanding of his word.
The law of love does not require obedience to the letter (written) law. It is written in your heart. The fact that Christ is in your heart points you to the cross in which you give freely in love, not because of the letter.

Jesus did not commend the men in Matthew 23:23….in fact he stated that there are matters heavier than these (tithes).

What about Matthew 7:11-13?

11) - But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, [It is] Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [he shall be free].

12) - And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

13) - Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Corban meaning, a gift to God. So the law of love (for an evident household need) is nullified (Jesus said made of NONE effect) by the fact that men claim a gift for God via tradition/rules/regulations & justify null support for parents.

How many claim a gift for God and refuse to give to the individual whom really needs it? Are we giving with false motives? Are we holding out for the church because we were told that if we gave to them we would be the head and not the tail?

The Bible is clear on this. The law of love is written in the heart. God would not want you to support the group when there are needs within your own home, his order is perfect.

Failing to care for needs of the home defies his own divine order of creation. Homes must be in order, because the home is a direct correlation with the church, and the church is a correlation of him.

2 Corinthians 3:3

[Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

The tithe is a principle that can be followed, but not ahead of God’s order in the home and family.
While some of the arguments (web sites listed) are a little shrill (as is common among those holding minority opinions), never the less there is some excellent material here, if one is willing to spend the time and effort to dig through it.

For example, just which "ministries" are to be supported? It isn't all of them.

But, if all ministries are to be supported, then everyone who labors in the Temple (church) is to receive their equal share of the tithe (door keeper, grounds keeper, greeter, singers, etc.), and the high priest (senior pastor?) is to receive only a tithe of the tithe for the one year he is in office. These there is the tite of the tithe that is to be aside for the poor, the widow, the fatherless,

There are the ten foundational ordinance of tithing, rom the 613 Laws listed by Moshe Maimonides:

202. Not to eat untithed fruits Lev. 22:15
249. To separate the tithe for the poor Deut. 14:28
252. To set aside Terumah Gedolah (tithe for the Kohen) Deut. 18:4
253. The Levite must set aside a tenth of his tithe Num. 18:26
254. Not to preface one tithe to the next, but separate them in their proper order Ex. 22:28
260. To set aside Ma'aser (tithe) each planting year and give it to a Levite Num. 18:24
261. To set aside the second tithe (Ma'aser Sheni) Deut. 14:22
269. To read the confession of tithes every fourth and seventh year Deut. 26:13
429. Separate the tithe from animals Lev. 27:32
430. Not to redeem the tithe Lev. 27:33

Money matters are a separate issue from tithes and handled quite differently. See articles on the Temple tax, tribute, (See Matthew 17:24-27 one example. Also see Leviticus and Numbers for further examples monetary requirements.)

It is also important to note that many of the tithing requirements are based on the tithe received by the priests and the Levite (who were not given the right to produce their own food) from the people - and New Covenant believers are recognized as being both priests and kings by God, while the only High Priest left to us is Jesus Christ.

If the congregation will not support the local church, then they have not been properly taught the principles of giving (sharing, helping, compassion, etc.) To impose an ordinance on the people that Jesus nailed to His cross is not the way to do it. Using fear and manipulation (carrot and the stick) is not all that effective. If the issue is not a matter of the heart, then it is of the law (flesh).

To properly understand the principles of the Law of God, and how approach, study and understand those principles as there were meant to be applied, see Mt. chapters 5-7. This section also address the use of the oral law as a teaching tool.

What is really needed is not the defense of a particular position on church finance, but conduct an honest study of God's view of economics - and why He hold to them. - and what man has done to them.
I would also add the following notes:

The Levites were were to be provided for in the following: Deuteronomy 10, Deuteronomy 18, Joshua 13-14 (emphases vs 14:4, where the Levites were given land around the six cities assigned to them. Even so, the priesthood as was provided, was God's Plan B. Plan A was for the first born mail of each family, of each tribe was to be dedicated to the priesthood. That changed with the Golden Calf incident.

Now, according to the word, the priests of God in Israel (including the entire tribe of Levi) were to receive their support from the remaining nine tribes.

With the advent of nation of kings and priests, who is to tithe and who is to receive those tithes? If a pastor believes that he is entitled to the tithes of the assembly, then he is obligated to distribute that income according to the principle of Levitical support. The practical fallout would be for the pastor to give up all right to any income other than Temple taxs and such moneies as stipulated in scripture. He is not to engage in any outside employment and must relinquish all savings, investments, and all other income not derived from his Temple service. All food stuff must come from the tithe and sacrifices offered by the other nine tribes. As to housing, a place to live will be provided as determined by the assembly. Transportation is not provided for.

The problem is that I have not found any minister who is willing to live on what the congregation provides – especially from a poor assembly. Give up the fine house, the cars, the income that exceeds the average income of the church members (the non-biblical tithe on money), plus any income from outside employment or investments, reduced to taking public transpiration or taking rides from those willing to give them.

The results are that those who desire the tithes from others (as the receiver defines tithes), are not willing to trust God to provide for them – they depend on men.

Even so, while most people will not question the spiritual authority of a pastor, some will do the math. While they do not have the money to fix their own car, they see their tithes paying for the pastors new one. Ten people averaging $20,000 a year tithe, ($20,000.00 * 0.1= $2,000.00, times 10 tithers = $20,000.00) For the sake of an example, assume that the church grows to 30 tithers. The income now becomes $60,000.00, based on an average congregational income of $20,000.00 per person per year. It really doesn't matter very much does it, when a family is struggling along on $20,000.00 per year, while the avowed servant of that assembly is living on three times the income. Add to that a secular job, and the seeds of rebellion have been sown by the very one who would make merchandise of God's sheep. That principle of ministerial support is not to be found, or justified, within scripture.

Concerning the "law" of tithing, or its principle as still being in affect under the New Covenant: Those laws were not specifically rescinded, therefore those laws must still be in effect in the New Covent church. Laws that we now rewrite to suit our own purposes. Even so, may I also point out that there are many Old Testament laws governing slavery that are not specifically listed as being abolished in the New Testament. Even so, is there anyone here who thinks we should still follow those laws and/or their principles? I would pray not!

We all (yep, includes me too) need to take care in how we present our arguments.

I still vote for a full, in depth, honest study of this question, and let the chips (or the laws) fall where they might. The absolute truth? I think we will find in the end, that every law (better translation: Instructions) of God remains in affect, even though modified, transformed, and incorporated into the newer covenant - even as they have always have been, even from the time of Adam - and shall continue to the marriage feast of the Lamb, when the final covenant is established.

I'm following you, your logic in this is impeccable... and I never knew that specific OT requirements of tithing excluded money. How did it get so twisted?

Also agree that we have not been taught on this subject. I want to let you know that I've copied your comments and also the ten foundational ordinance for further study
I am working on a studyon theLaw of God, which I hope to complete two or three weeks ago. LOLOL

It is a general teaching on the role of God's Instructions to mankind in how to live a life pleasing to Him. I am working on the final few parts. Thenext one will address the paradox of "The Bible declares that man cannot keep the Law and the Bible says that man can keep the law.. What? Yes, that is the paradox - both statements are true - and the intervention of the Holy Spirit is not a requirement to make it so (But, it does help! LOLOL).

It is turning into a really interesting study - I am learning alot.
Oops - the word "mail" in theabove post should have read "male"

"(Jesus said made of NONE effect) by the fact that men claim a gift for God via tradition/rules/regulations & justify null support for parents. How many claim a gift for God and refuse to give to the individual whom really needs it? Are we giving with false motives?"

How many do indeed?! Well how about this: take your tithes and pay the church, and ignore your bills. Scripture says in business [matters] be men [mature]. In other words, honor your financial obligations. No, Jesus' strong exhortation to the Pharisees was an indictment of their ritualistic legalistic traditions, not approval because they paid tithes on the smallest of herbs.
An assumption based on a false premise. The position stated requires that all church funds and funded activities are derived from tithing. I doubt that that is the case in themajority of churches.

The pastor who turns over his/her tithes to the church general fund are very rare, especially after the break-even point for tithing takes place, i.e. the tithe equals or exceeds the average income of the congregation.
Excellent point - a church organized as it is today in the west cannot exist with money. Some churches require a lot of money. I also believe that most members here would also agree that a church must be financed.

I think where the major break in agreements come is in how a church should be financed and for what purposes? For example, some have argue that ministerial support is should to be for those who travel in their ministries, caring the gospel throughout the land, not for those ministering from their homes and in local communities.

There are some excellent arguments to be made for a number of different interpretations. A difficulty is that it is too easy to argue for a position without taking into consideration all of the scripture that the doctrine hangs on.
whats wrong with giving as God prospers and/or leads you to? Most do give, regular amounts too. Some give large amounts regularly. The problem is when it is emotionalized and the preacher will spend 15 minutes gearing up, insulting the peoples' intelligence as if they cant read him. Another problem as AW said is that Gods economy has not been taught in the church. I never heard a sermon on tithing until I was called into ministry. And I grew up in the same denom you're in, a Baptist one. MB in fact. No, people were told blindly to follow, and for years they did. Not everyone is today though.

And, if its true that principles of tithing did not invlove money, then we do have a problem for real. I have to study up on that more before I can say more though. Thats the thing about some discussions, they really are stimulating.
Pastor, you have forgotten to mention that the tenth should be counted with the tax reduction people get.

People give tenth but then they get less tax by give tithing in an envelope with their address on so they don't give tenth for real.

The tradition in Israel was in harvest time to let 10 % of the harvest be not reaped, it's for the poor to take.

The harvest today are not out on a farm but for example those business many churches have, that at least 10% of the income in business should go to the poor.

After the tax.

You can harvest in many things...for example in time, to set aside 10 % of your time to poor people.

or volunteering....

or preaching, that 10 % of the time you preach in your church can you help a smaller church by preaching 10% of the same amount of time to help the smaller to grow bigger.

We don't need to see it in money all the time...

one Sunday didn't I had any money at all ( not in the bank either ) so I gave away some bus token to the church ...


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