Some people say, "baptism doesn't save us". I agree....... Not by itself it doesn't. But it was apart of Jesus' command in a few texts. Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 16:16 are two popular ones on baptism. Was Jesus' commands an option? Or commands we should obey if we want to be saved? Think about it and then tell me if baptism is essential to salvation. Enjoy!
The thief on the cross (Luke 23:43) was saved without being baptized.
Like the other ordinance, regular observance of the Lord's Supper, believers should consent to baptism; it is a matter of obedience. But salvation doesn't hinge upon it.
We know many were baptised during Jesus' ministry. We cannot say for a fact that this "thief" was not baptised.
He could have been baptized previously and "back slid" into a life of sin. Based upon what this thief said, about Jesus' coming kingdom, he obviously was familiar with Jesus' teachings about the kingdom to come in which Jesus would rule as king.
Baptism before Messiah's death apparently was not practiced, except for purification and repentance.
However after the death and resurrection it was not optional it was a command, based upon Matt. 28;19 - 23.
Our Messiah made it clear in His own example and His example during His ministry, and His commission after His resurrection that Baptism was part of the Great Commission not only to the 11 disciples but to believers of all time. From Acts 2, throughout acts, baptism is a given to the new believer.
Whatever Paul said is irrelavant if it contradicts our Messiah's commands, and the historic practice of the 11/12 disciples.
Do you realize that for Paul to even enter the Temple in Jerusalem, he had to undergo a baptism/mikveh?
Our Savior says that the "wise man builds his house upon His words". Paul's words/doctrines cannot "upstage" our Saviors! We must have two or three witnesses to establish a matter. On any subject, if there are several texts by which we can interpret it, we don't accept the obscure, one and reject the majority which are clear.
The question is "whose disciple are YOU"? Paul's or Jesus'?
Revelation states that the "saints keep the commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus Christ". Baptism is part of the "faith/practice/commands of Jesus Christ". This following article should help explain why your view, Anthony is very flawed:
“For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect” (1 Cor. 1:17).
Some have understood this passage to teach that Paul was not sent to baptize, thus baptism is not important to salvation. Others go so far as to use this verse to teach that baptism is not even part of preaching the Gospel. “Paul in fact drew a clear distinction between the preaching of the gospel and baptism when he said, “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel...” 1 Cor. 1:17 (Water Baptism and Salvation: A Response to the Teaching of the Church of Christ, Keith Johnson).
***PAUL HIMSELF WAS BAPTIZED***
so that his sins could be washed away (Acts 22:16; 9:12). This was done at the direction of Ananias who was sent to Paul by the Lord Himself to tell Paul what he must do.
***Before we investigate what Paul is trying to say in this passage, let us first observe what this verse of Scripture does not say. It does not say that Paul did not baptize. It does not say that Paul did not preach the essentiality of baptism to salvation. It does not say that Paul did not baptize lest some should think baptism was essential to salvation. It does not say the baptism is not part of the Gospel. It does not say that baptism is not essential to salvation.***
Bad, very bad comment! The fact is that the text informs us that; the thief died and was not baptized. To say that he may is to proof text (add our meaning to the passage) and is not supported by the context of the passage itself.
Baptism was practiced before Jesus’ birth and remembers that John baptized Jesus! (Matt 3:13-16).
Elder, that depends on which baptism are you speaking of? Water baptism or baptism of the Holy Spirit? The baptism of the Holy Spirit is our comforter and this is what Jesus left us to lead and guide us into all truth. The Holy Spirit is what gives us power to live right in our everyday lives. Without the baptism of the Holy Spirit, we have no power to cast out demons and boldness to lay hands on the sick. This is also part of the trinity. Without the baptism of the Holy Spirit, how can we do any of those things which was said by God?
If this is the case, I believe one can be saved. Water Baptism is a physical sign that your sins have been redeemed. I would question the fact if one isn't baptised in the Holy Spirit..
Jesus didn't baptize people but his disciples did as they traveled together. So many thought he actually baptized more than John but it was his disciples. (John 4:1-2). I like your opening statement here......... "The Bible is clear that water baptism is essential to obedience and to a "good conscience." See, I think this is what I've been trying to convey, "obedience". See I view obedience as being "salvific". I really do! As well as perseverance. Anyway, I was talking to another brother that's heavy in the Word and he brought up a good point that I had already noticed in Mark 16:16 but hadn't shared it with you yet. He said that we need to search for scriptures that warn us of the danger of not being baptized. I see in Mark 16:16 that the B Clause says, "but he that believeth not shall be damned". I told the brother Jesus didn't meantion baptism in the B Clause. So will we be damned if we aren't obedient in being baptized is the issue. I've looked at the responses of the newly saved people in Acts and I see that one that has repented and has responded in saving faith which happens simultaneously, obediently responds to being baptized. Even if they have to be told they need to. Acts 2:38, Acts 19:1-6. And notice in Acts 19 they were disciples but hadn't heard of the Holy Ghost and had only been baptized unto John's baptism. They were baptized and then the Holy Ghost came upon them by the laying on of hands by Paul. I also notice that the Holy Ghost comes after baptism as it did after Jesus' baptism. And in Acts 2:38 Peter says repent and be baptized, then you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. HMMMMMMMMM!
I'm not flip flopping, I'm just learning as I dig into this topic. I'm finding scriptures and events that support my views as well as I've found scriptures and events that have made me recant. In Mark 16:16 I discovered that Jesus didn't add baptism to what will cause one to be damned. So it caused me to see what my friend was saying about searching for a scripture that warns us about not being baptized. Haven't found one! But I've found several on warnings against unbelief and rejecting Christ and the gospel. I do find several accounts of people being baptized before receiving the Holy Ghost. Jesus being the example. Compared to those who received the Holy Ghost first which is an exception to a consistant rule in scripture. And after further evaluation, which I stated in the other discussion, I see in Acts that saved individuals immediately obey the command to be baptized. Even if they have to be told it's essential like in Acts 19. These believers hadn't been baptized nor filled with the Holy Ghost. Paul asked, "have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed"? Found that interesting too!
Yes, this has been a very insightful debate that has caused me to find some very interesting truths in scripture. Luke Mathew 7:11 and Luke 11:13. Matthew 7:11 says how much more will the Father give "good things" to them that ask. Luke 11 says "the Holy Spirit". Seems like the theme is the Father gives "good things/gifts" to his children. As Jesus said the evil fathers give good gifts to thier children. I wouldn't build a doctrine on asking for the Holy Spirit with this text. Especially seeing there is no example of asking for it in Acts. Still learning!
We are commanded to teach disciples to observe all the things Christ commanded. (Matthew 28:19-20)
1) to attend to carefully, take care of
a) to guard
So yes, I'm very animate about obedience and correction. And if I ever fall short....... Galatians 6:1 and 1 John 2:1