Who is the REAL God of the Old Testament? Part 1
Who is the God of the Old Testament?
Why is it so important that we know who the God of the Old Testament is? After all, it seems quite clear that God the Father is what was taught to us as the God of the Old Testament, right? Well, let’s search to see if that is really what God‘s Holy scriptures says!
Has Anyone seen God the Father?
St. John 1: 18 – No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.
St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Notice the distinction that is made in the above verses? Both Jesus and the apostle John referred to God as, God the Father. According to the scriptures, NO MAN HAS SEEN NOR HEARD GOD THE FATHER AT ANY TIME. let’s remember who made (2) of those statements…..JESUS!!! Now let’s search the scriptures of the OT.
This CAN NOT be the Father….so who is it?
Exd 24: 9 – 11. 9. Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Exd 33: 11 – And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
Exd 33: 23 – And I will take mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Num 12: 6-8. 6. And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all my house.
8. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold:
Now after reading these scriptures it seems very evident that, not only did Moses see and hear the voice of the God of Israel, but at least seventy-three people saw and heard him.
Let’s review:
In St. John we found that no man has seen God the Father, heard his voice nor seen his shape at anytime.
In Exodus and Numbers we found that Moses and at least seventy other elders saw and eat with the God of Isreal.
So what do we have here? Jesus himself said, no man has seen God the Father and the Old Testament says that Moses and at least seventy elders saw God. Could this be a contradiction? God forbid! Let’s continue to search the scriptures for the truth.
Searching for the ‘God’ of the OT
Now most of us have been taught that Jesus and God the Father are both Gods, but have you ever read it for yourself in the bible? Can you prove it through the scriptures?
Let’s start in the book of Philippians (NT) 2: 5-8. Here, Paul is talking to the Philippians and telling them to have the same mind as Christ has.
Phil 2:5-8. 5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
So here we have Paul telling us that Jesus, a God, found it not wrong to be equal with God, obviously God the Father. The reason I can say that is because Jesus is the one that became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Now let’s go to St. John (NT) to get a better understanding of these two (2) Gods. Yes….these TWO Gods!!!!!
St. John 1:1-4,14 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the life of men.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So now after reading in St. John we can understand why the statement in Philippians is true.
Jesus (The Word) did not think it wrong to be equal to God because, according to St. John1:1, he was God.
And how do I know that the Word is Jesus Christ? Because verse 14 tells us that “, the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.” And the Word, in St. John, is the same person that, “.,became obedient unto the death, even the death of the cross.” in Phil 2:8.
Now there was one thing I hope you did not miss. Who was it that made everything that was made? That’s right! It was the Word. And who is the Word? Jesus Christ. Now let’s go to Colossians (NT) to confirm this.
In this book we have Paul addressing the Colossians and encouraging them to stay strong in the faith, but not before letting them know whom it is that they should be thanking:
Col1:12-17 12. Giving thanks to the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.
17. And he is above all things, and by him all things consist.
So it is through, “…his dear SON…”, “…ALL things were created….” Need more proof?
Here are two more scriptures:
Hebrews (1:1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
(2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
Ephesians (3:9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Obviously Paul is telling the listeners the exact same thing St John said. And what he is saying is that the person that we have come to know as the Word, or Jesus Christ, is the one that created everything. Now this is very important. Let’s reason together for a moment and review the facts we’ve found in the scriptures.
We know that Jesus Christ is God and found it not robbery to be equal to God the Father. (NT) Phil 2:6.
We know that Jesus humbled himself and became obedient unto the death of the cross. (NT) Phil 2:8.
We know that the Word (Jesus Christ) was God, was made flesh and dwelt among us. (NT) St. John 1: 1 & 14.
And finally we know that the Word made everything that was made. “ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. (NT) Col 12:16.
Now at this point it should be quite clear as to what these scriptures are saying, but just incase you are not following them here it is in a nutshell:
Jesus Christ, also known as the Word, created everything that was created and he is a GOD!!
Why is it so important that we know who the God of the Old Testament is? After all, it seems quite clear that God the Father is what was taught to us as the God of the Old Testament, right? Well, let’s search to see if that is really what God‘s Holy scriptures says!
Has Anyone seen God the Father?
St. John 1: 18 – No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.
St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Notice the distinction that is made in the above verses? Both Jesus and the apostle John referred to God as, God the Father. According to the scriptures, NO MAN HAS SEEN NOR HEARD GOD THE FATHER AT ANY TIME. let’s remember who made (2) of those statements…..JESUS!!! Now let’s search the scriptures of the OT.
This CAN NOT be the Father….so who is it?
Exd 24: 9 – 11. 9. Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Exd 33: 11 – And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
Exd 33: 23 – And I will take mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Num 12: 6-8. 6. And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all my house.
8. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold:
Now after reading these scriptures it seems very evident that, not only did Moses see and hear the voice of the God of Israel, but at least seventy-three people saw and heard him.
Let’s review:
In St. John we found that no man has seen God the Father, heard his voice nor seen his shape at anytime.
In Exodus and Numbers we found that Moses and at least seventy other elders saw and eat with the God of Isreal.
So what do we have here? Jesus himself said, no man has seen God the Father and the Old Testament says that Moses and at least seventy elders saw God. Could this be a contradiction? God forbid! Let’s continue to search the scriptures for the truth.
Searching for the ‘God’ of the OT
Now most of us have been taught that Jesus and God the Father are both Gods, but have you ever read it for yourself in the bible? Can you prove it through the scriptures?
Let’s start in the book of Philippians (NT) 2: 5-8. Here, Paul is talking to the Philippians and telling them to have the same mind as Christ has.
Phil 2:5-8. 5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
So here we have Paul telling us that Jesus, a God, found it not wrong to be equal with God, obviously God the Father. The reason I can say that is because Jesus is the one that became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Now let’s go to St. John (NT) to get a better understanding of these two (2) Gods. Yes….these TWO Gods!!!!!
St. John 1:1-4,14 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the life of men.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So now after reading in St. John we can understand why the statement in Philippians is true.
Jesus (The Word) did not think it wrong to be equal to God because, according to St. John1:1, he was God.
And how do I know that the Word is Jesus Christ? Because verse 14 tells us that “, the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.” And the Word, in St. John, is the same person that, “.,became obedient unto the death, even the death of the cross.” in Phil 2:8.
Now there was one thing I hope you did not miss. Who was it that made everything that was made? That’s right! It was the Word. And who is the Word? Jesus Christ. Now let’s go to Colossians (NT) to confirm this.
In this book we have Paul addressing the Colossians and encouraging them to stay strong in the faith, but not before letting them know whom it is that they should be thanking:
Col1:12-17 12. Giving thanks to the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.
17. And he is above all things, and by him all things consist.
So it is through, “…his dear SON…”, “…ALL things were created….” Need more proof?
Here are two more scriptures:
Hebrews (1:1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
(2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
Ephesians (3:9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Obviously Paul is telling the listeners the exact same thing St John said. And what he is saying is that the person that we have come to know as the Word, or Jesus Christ, is the one that created everything. Now this is very important. Let’s reason together for a moment and review the facts we’ve found in the scriptures.
We know that Jesus Christ is God and found it not robbery to be equal to God the Father. (NT) Phil 2:6.
We know that Jesus humbled himself and became obedient unto the death of the cross. (NT) Phil 2:8.
We know that the Word (Jesus Christ) was God, was made flesh and dwelt among us. (NT) St. John 1: 1 & 14.
And finally we know that the Word made everything that was made. “ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. (NT) Col 12:16.
Now at this point it should be quite clear as to what these scriptures are saying, but just incase you are not following them here it is in a nutshell:
Jesus Christ, also known as the Word, created everything that was created and he is a GOD!!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Eccl. 12:13 on
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You failed to answer my questions;
1. I must ask, Just what is Jesus to you if NOT God? Because according to the following;
Phil 2:5-8. 5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
And 2. Did you bother to read Part 2 of this lesson? -
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Let's not play with words here. No one said 'THEY saw God', but God's WORD said they saw Him. The scripture was very specific, "hands and feet" not Gods 'glory'.
Exod.33
[11] And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
Deut.5
[4] The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
Deut.34
[10] And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
The following is a future time;
Ezek.20
[35] And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. -
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Permalink Reply by James Pierce on
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lol. I think I will do the same and wait for the next run
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Eccl,
Its an assumption that they were seeing Yeshua. Yeshua is the davar of Yahweh. Its his divine expression. Yeshua isnt made up of glory, if you will. To see Yahweh in the form of a cloud, the scripture would say,"And Moses saw God".
Gideon saw the angel of Yahweh, and he said he saw Yahweh, but he did NOT. He saw the angel that was representing him. We can only assume that Gideon saw Yeshua, but if you want to think that, then feel free. I disagree on that.
What is Yeshua to me? Yeshua is the davar of Yahweh. He is Yahweh's divine expression. You must not have read my previous posts, for I explain in vivid detail on how I view Yeshua. I never said he was not Yahweh, but the Christian understanding of the deity of Yeshua is flawed.
I did not read part 2. I glanced over it. I've been in Christianity long enough to know and understand the doctrine of the trinity, and deity of Yeshua. Now, My understanding comes from the Hebre perspective. Again, IM NOT DEBATING ON WHETHER OR NOT YESHUA WAS SEEN IN THE OT, RATHER, THAT 2 SEPARATE GODS DO NOT EXIST.
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I was taught only one language, English. So when you use words other than English I do not know what you are talking about. When you say you have other post speaking about the davar of Yah, or anything like that I do not understand, so no I did not read them.
God's word said he would speak to us in different languages;
Isa.28
[11] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
English is the only one I know, so let's cut to the chase here and tell me just what Jesus is to you?
Is Jesus God? Man? There are only (2) choices!!
If you only glanced over Part 2 of me lesson and think I'm promoting the trinity, you are sadly mistaken.
The bottom line of this lesson is this;
Jesus IS the God of the OT.
It was Jesus that made the earth and everything in it, including us.
It was Jesus that gave His laws to Moses.
It was Jesus that spoke to ALL of the prophets.
It was Jesus that came and died for us.
It will be Jesus that returns and rules on this earth for 1000 years.
It will be Jesus, and Him alone that Judge us.
Here is something for you to think about, let's read the following verse;
Zech.12
[10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Now this is God speaking here, but notice what He says; "they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced..."
Now just who was it that was pierced and mourned over as an only son? It was Jesus! But He said this in the OT!!!
We will not have ANY contact with God the Father until we ALL are spirit beings!
Until that time we have only known ONE GOD...JESUS!!!! -
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Permalink Reply by Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene on
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Bro. James, you said:
Christians believe that Yeshua is Yahweh, to the point where Yeshua himself is the father. How can Yeshua be the father of himself?
Watch your mouth on that one bro! True Christians DO NOT believe that JESUS is the Father. That is what some call the Oneness doctrine, but is properly named Sabellianism after the heretic who was excommunicated at the Council of Nicaea. They claim that to be Apostolic, but its far from the truth.
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Trevor,
Nowadays, You can't even tell what a true Christian is, because EVERYONE claims it!
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True, true. We of the Christian faith have deemed the Oneness doctrine a heresy hundreds of years ago already. Its like a sickness that won't go away!
Scripture proves that JESUS did not claim to be our Father, but our brother.
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Hey Moreh, if we are reading the same Bible, we can't possible disagree on EVERYTHING, now can we? Besides, everything I've spoke was the truth, its just a matter of you believing it or not.
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I don't think Jesus is a nut at all. But what I know is that there are (2) in the Godhead; The one we have come to know as Jesus, and the one we have come to know as God the Father.
I have explained myself in a lesson. I would be interested in knowing how you come to you beliefs, if that can be done through God's inspired word, mind you I only speak English.
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I DO NOT believe that one is the other, or that they are ONE acting at different times.
I believe that Jesus is a God. The ONLY God man has ever had ANY dealings with, the God of the OT.
And I believe that God the Father is a God. The God that Jesus said NO MAN HAS SEEN AT ANY TIME.
And the (2) of them (Elohim) Jesus (Yahshua) and God (Yahweh) make up the Godhead!
Please understand something;
I DO NOT believe in the Trinity!
I DO believe that ALL of Gods laws are to be kept except for those that invole animal sacrifice.
I DO believe we are to keep ALL of God's feast days.
I DO believe that God's dietary laws are to be kept.
I KNOW that most Christain holidays are of pagan origin, X-man, Easter, and DO NOT celebrate them, nor call them by another name and still ingage in the holiday.
I KNOW we ARE NOT going to heaven, nor is there anybody that have died there now!
I KNOW that grace alone WILL NOT get you into God's kingdom!
So please do not put me in the same group of christains you normally run into on this forum.
Thanks for the invite and I will try to get to one of your blogs soon.
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Eccl,
You continue to make the error of adding the indefinite article to separate the two, making them two separate Gods. Yahweh is the only God. Yeshua is not a God supreme like Yahweh, and separate from Yahweh. First thing's first is that the indefinite article does not exist in the Greek language. So, to insert it, it would have to make sense with the whole of scripture, otherwise, it need not to be there.
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