In reading the different dicussions on the site I love it because I am always looking to talk the Word over with fellow believers, and were there are disagreements I love to hear the different view points wether oe not i agree with them. And during the course of reading I have noticed that there are some Messianic Jews that add to the disussions on here ( and some are right on it), but I am wondering why would people who were gentiles by birth need to follow something that was never meant for them i.e. the Law.

Paul wrote many of his letters to refute the very fact of judiazers telling gentile believers that they had to follow the Law as well as believe in Jesus. Or even the fact that Peter and Paul had a disagreement over this very subject:

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is my belief that the Law was given by God to the Jews. But Christ came for All, and fulfilled the Law so why do I have to go back to following something that has already been fullfilled? Very interested in hearing your thoughts!!

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Posting scripture with NO exegesis and interpretation is basically saying nothing. You posting scripture does not speak, less you sit there and break down the scripture using literary background and context.

First you can justify anything in the Scriptures when you pick out little pieces of the Scriptures. You must first read the entire letters/books of the New Testament because they are letters written to folks trying to walk out the Righteous life, which is the walk of the Torah. You said "The LAW is NOT of Faith, but you left out the part that says, "but “The man who does them shall live by them.” It goes on to say, "Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the Torah, having become a curse for us – for it has been written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs upon a tree.” Are you going to throw out Jesus, because he was definitly hung on a tree and he definitly became a curse, and he is the Word according to John 1:1 -14. And He said Himself said, Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets.1 I did not come to destroy but to complete." the KJV says fulfill and man has taken that word to mean done away with but if you search the greek meaning through the Thayer Greek Lexicon it means to bring to it's completeness.

Notice also that the Scripture says the man who does them shall LIVE by them and then he says Messiah redeemed us from the curse that is in the TORAH, never does he say that we have been redeemed from the Blessings of the LAW or TORAH. Do you want to be redeemed from the Blessings???? I think it very interesting that people love to quote the Blessings of Deut. 28 but don't want to take responsibility for the their deeds that bring on the curses. I challenge you brother to read Deut 28:15 - the end of that chapter and tell me if you or anyone who you know are christians that fall in the verses.

James says, James 2:18 But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works. The work is the walking out of the Torah. Basically he is saying that your walk or works will testify of you faith/belief. Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.

Who is Paul referring to as false Brothern? You need to read the entire letter of Galatains. Torah is never spoken of in the Scriptures as bondage as a matteer of fact it is referred to as life and light. Read the Psalms. God says it is our wisdom. You may want to be careful calling keepers of God's and Jesus Word FALSE BRETHREN.
Please read

Romans 7:

21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Leigh, do you like Paul, "serve the law of God with your mind"----------now that you have accepted the Messiah, is this your intent to obey God's laws? This is the attitude of those who truly have God's laws in their hearts and minds. When we are weak and fail to keep them, we have the Messiah who provides the grace and forgivenes for our iniquity.

It seems incredulous that you don't realize that lawlessness will put you the same realm as the Christians in the following text who had many "mighty works" but who are disobedient to "God's laws" :

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.

Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7: 21-23)
Amen Leigh
Shalom Busby I would like to ask a question of you. Can you show me in black and white were it is written we are no longer under the laws of God, or even Moses although he is not the author of the commandments? Yahshua (Jesus) Himself said he did not come to destroy the law, anyone who teaches against it is lest meaning not in His kingdom. This is a matter of the heart you do not have to except the Law of God it's your choice. The translation of the Greek word nomos (law) did not define what specific law Shaul (Paul) was speaking of, so the traditional teaching has been missing correct interpretation of Romans 8:2 the blood of Yahshua freed us from the law of sin and death. So if you have a direct quote from God or Jesus please share it with us. As for me and my house we love Yahshua and Yahweh that much that it is not a burden to live by His Laws it is liberty.
Please tell us which of God's law if you kept it would bring you into bondage?
Any supposed liberty "outside of the law" is LAWLESSNESS...... which puts you at odds with the LAWGIVER, and in sin, which is the transgression of the law.

Yahshua is our example on how to walk in YHWH's law. He kept all of God's commandments and taught others to do so.

Is HE also a legalist????
Shalom to Rev Eric,
I am glad to to have read the discussion that you posted on gentile birth under the law or not.
First to examine this question we must look at what Yahshua (Jesus) said concerning the law.

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah (Law) or the Prophets.1 I did not come to destroy but to complete.
Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.
Mat 5:19 “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.

Complete meaning to fulfill. You do have a choice whether or not to receive the Law of God it is free to anyone who desire’s it.
There is liberty in obedience to the will of God. He says I put both life and death before you choose life.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love for Elohim, that we guard His commands and His commands are not heavy,

Mat 10:40 “He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.

James 2:10 For whoever shall guard all the Torah (Law), and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Let’s go back to the beginning back in the Garden. What did Satan say to Eve, surly you will not die? We all know the end result they died.
We have been deceived by the same adversary surly we are not under the Law, is it such a bad thing and God made that big of an era. The commandments are taking us back under bondage. To the contrary He has freed us through the blood of the Slain Lamb Jesus. It is taught that the law was written by Moses if he was the author there maybe room to argue but God wrote them with his own finger then rewritten again by Moses after he thrown them to the ground signifying the heart of man was stony and not will to receive the Laws of God so He wrote them on the tables of the heart. Now if you receive them you also receive Him who sent Him. Yahshua (Jesus) is the incarnate Law that was from the very beginning. It is only through and by the Holy Spirit that we can accept the unity of the Father and the Son truly being One (Echad).

What is sin? The transgression of the law! If that is true then if we are not under the law then there is no sin!
Be careful there are two sins 1 is the transgression of the law the other in Iniquity they carry different penalties. Transgression is to sin by breaking the commands of God unintentionally. Iniquity is breaking the commands of God by the intentions of you heart, God said he will visit the sins of the father to the three and fourth generation. This is generational curses that have over taken us. The prove is poverty, disease, financial instability, confusion of the mind, rape, miscarriage, molestation, ect. (Duet 28)

Jn 1:9 Everyone who is transgressing and not staying in the teaching of Messiah does not possess Elohim.
The one who stays in the teaching of Messiah possesses both the Father and the Son.

Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of
Aḏam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Rom 4:15 for the Torah works out wrath, for where there is no Torah (Law) there is no transgression.
No law there is no sin. I have presented some over whelming facts none of which you have to believe but you don’t have to believe them for them to be true. Remember ignorance is not an excuse with God Aḇimeleḵ took Sarah and said to God I did not know she was his wife.
Gen 20:3 God replied I know ”you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife.”
You know what Rabbi James I am really going to take soem time to ead what you have written (I just quickly read through it this time) but I want to really thank you for the way you presented your point of view, and by begining you post with a key word Peace. That truly set the tone for the rest of your words.
My brother, you are the first I have seen on this BPN site to truly express the spirit of the Bereans.
Search the scriptures to see whether the things you have read here are so....
Rev Eric,

Thank you for taking the time to ask. So many times people just chuck these discussions and not take the time to really sit down and search out the Word for there is truly hidden manna in them. I pray that the God of our Fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and our Messiah Yahshuah (Jesus) Bless you with an abundance of knowledge of Him because it seems that you want to really know Him. If you didn't you wouldn't have aksed the question. I praise Father for you.

Blessings and Shalom!
Bro Eric:

Church as well as secular documents have been preserved to verify that the Sabbath (which was Jesus and his disciple's [and even Paul's] custom to keep), continued to be kept by the people who were "observing whatsoever Jesus commanded" (Matt. 28:19 - 23): I will only paste a few references for first few centuries. By going to the web page one can access references showing an unbroken chain of Sabbathkeepers, Jew and Gentile alike, throughout Church history that existed along side of the Roman church:

The Sabbath Through History

Hallowed by the Creator's rest and blessing, the Sabbath was kept by Adam in his innocence in holy Eden; by Adam, fallen yet repentant, when he was driven from his happy estate. It was kept by all the patriarchs, from Abel to righteous Noah, to Abraham, to Jacob. When the chosen people were in bondage in Egypt, many, in the midst of prevailing idolatry, lost their knowledge of God's law; but when the Lord delivered Israel, he proclaimed his law in awful grandeur to the assembled multitude, that they might know his will, and fear and obey him forever.

From that day to the present, the knowledge of God's law has been preserved in the earth, and the Sabbath of the fourth commandment has been kept. Though the "man of sin" succeeded in trampling under foot God's holy day, yet even in the period of his supremacy there were, hidden in secret places, faithful souls who paid it honor. Since the Reformation, there have been some in every generation to maintain its observance. Though often in the midst of reproach and persecution, a constant testimony has been borne to the perpetuity of the law of God, and the sacred obligation of the creation Sabbath.

Institution Of The Sabbath
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Genesis 2:1-3

Sabbath History - 1stCentury

"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read." Luke 4:16

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:16-17

"But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the Sabbath day." Matthew 24:20.
Jesus asked his disciples to pray that in the flight from the doomed city of Jerusalem they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day. This flight took place in 70 A.D. (40 years after the Cross).

His Followers
"And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." Luke 23:56

"And Paul, as his manner was went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures" Acts 17:2

Paul And Gentiles
"And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. And the next Sabbath came almost the whole city together to hear the Word of God." Acts 13:42, 44.

Here we find Gentiles in a Gentile city gathering on the Sabbath. It was not a synagogue meeting in verse 44, for it says almost the whole city came together, verse 42 says they asked to hear the message the "next Sabbath."

"There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries on China and Japan" (edited by Dennys), Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.

Declares the seventh day to be a festival, not of this or of that city, but of the universe. M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries," Vol. 4, 99
Sabbath History - 2nd Century

"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death."
"A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77

Early Christians
"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).

Early Christians
"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14

2nd Century Christians
"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.
Early Christians
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

Early Church
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77

Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. Paul the Apostle foretold a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.

2nd, 3rd, 4th Centuries
"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.
Sabbath History - 3rd Century

"The seventh-day Sabbath was...solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in manner quite abolish the observations of it." "Dissertation on the Lord's Day," pp. 33, 34

Egypt (Oxyrhynchus Papyrus) (200-250 A.D.)
"Except ye make the sabbath a real sabbath (sabbatize the Sabbath," Greek), ye shall not see the Father." "The oxyrhynchus Papyri," pt,1, p.3, Logion 2, verso 4-11 (London Offices of the Egypt Exploration Fund, 1898).

Early Christians-C 3rd
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands." "The Anti-Nicene Fathers," Vol 7,p. 413. From "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries.
Africa (Alexandria) Origen
"After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice (the crucifixion) is put the second festival of the Sabbath, and it is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a sabbatismus, that is, a keeping of the Sabbath, to the people of God (Hebrews 4:9)." "Homily on Numbers 23," par.4, in Migne, "Patrologia Graeca," Vol. 12,cols. 749, 750.

Palestine to India (Church of the East)
As early as A.D. 225 there existed lallrge bishoprics or conferences of the Church of the East (Sabbath-keeping) stretching from Palestine to India. Mingana, "Early Spread of Christianity." Vol.10, p. 460.

India (Buddhist Controversy, 220 A.D.)

The Kushan Dynasty of North India called a famous council of Buddhist priests at Vaisalia to bring uniformity among the Buddhist monks on the observance of their weekly Sabbath. Some had been so impressed by the writings of the Old Testament that they had begun to keep holy the Sabbath. Lloyd, "The Creed of Half Japan," p. 23.

Early Christians
"The seventh-day Sabbath was...solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in manner quite abolish the observations of it." "Dissertation on the Lord's Day," pp. 33, 34
Sabbath History - 4th Century

When you are in Rome, do as Rome does."
Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan gave rise to this proverb by stating that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome he observed Sunday. (See page 70 in this Online version of Truth Triumphant)

Italy AND EAST-C 4th
"It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the west...For in the Church of Millaine (Milan); seems the Saturday was held in a farre esteeme... Not that the Easterne Churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme (Judaism); but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus (Jesus) Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." "History of the Sabbath" (original spelling retained), Part 2, par. 5, pp.73, 74. London: 1636. Dr. Heylyn.

Italy - Milan
"Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb, 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does.'" Heylyn, "The History of the Sabbath" (1612)

Orient And Most Of World
"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observance of Saturday, or the seventh day...It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assembles on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." "Antiquities of the Christian Church," Vol.II Book XX, chap. 3, sec.1, 66. 1137,1138.
Abyssinia - Remnants of Philip's Evangelism
"In the last half of that century St. Ambrose of Milan stated officially that the Abyssinian bishop, Museus, had 'traveled almost everywhere in the country of the Seres' (China). For more than seventeen centuries the Abyssinian Church continued to sanctify Saturday as the holy day of the fourth commandment." Ambrose, DeMoribus, Brachmanorium Opera Ominia, 1132, found in Migne, Patrologia Latima, Vol.17, pp.1131,1132.

Arabia, Persia, India, China
"Mingana proves that in 370 A.D. Abyssinian Christianity (a Sabbath keeping church) was so popular that its famous director, Musacus, traveled extensively in the East promoting the church in Arabia, Persia, India and China." "Truth Triumphant,"p.308 (Footnote 27). (Page numbers vary in this Online version)

Spain - Council Elvira (A.D.305)
Canon 26 of the Council of Elvira reveals that the Church of Spainat that time kept Saturday, the seventh day. "As to fasting every Sabbath: Resolved, that the error be corrected of fasting every Sabbath." This resolution of the council is in direct opposition to the policy the church at Rome had inaugurated, that of commanding Sabbath as a fast day in order to humiliate it and make it repugnant to the people.

It is a point of further interest to note that in north-eastern Spainnear the city of Barcelona is a city called Sabadell, in a district originally inhabited. By a people called both "Valldenses" and Sabbatati."

Persia-A.D. 335-375 (40 Years Persecution Under Shapur II)
The popular complaint against the Christians-"They despise our sungod, they have divine services on Saturday, they desecrate the sacred the earth by burying their dead in it." Truth Triumphant," (Online Version p. 261)

"They despise our sun-god. Did not Zorcaster, the sainted founder of our divine beliefs, institute Sunday one thousand years ago in honour of the sun and supplant the Sabbath of the Old Testament. Yet these Christians have divine services on Saturday." O'Leary, "The Syriac Church and Fathers," pp.83, 84.

Council Laodicea - A.D.365
"Canon 16-On Saturday the Gospels and other portions of the Scripture shall be read aloud." "Canon 29-Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day." Hefele's "Councils," Vol. 2, b. 6. (See an online version of this council on the Roman Catholic New Advent website - see Canon 29)

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