In reading the different dicussions on the site I love it because I am always looking to talk the Word over with fellow believers, and were there are disagreements I love to hear the different view points wether oe not i agree with them. And during the course of reading I have noticed that there are some Messianic Jews that add to the disussions on here ( and some are right on it), but I am wondering why would people who were gentiles by birth need to follow something that was never meant for them i.e. the Law.

Paul wrote many of his letters to refute the very fact of judiazers telling gentile believers that they had to follow the Law as well as believe in Jesus. Or even the fact that Peter and Paul had a disagreement over this very subject:

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is my belief that the Law was given by God to the Jews. But Christ came for All, and fulfilled the Law so why do I have to go back to following something that has already been fullfilled? Very interested in hearing your thoughts!!

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Hi James

Thank you for your reply.

Yes, I did notice Heb 8:13 speaks of the old covenant is 'ready to vanish away'. Hebrews 8, which clearly shows that the first is obsolete, and bible scholars know that this is because the Temple had not yet been destroyed.

Therefore the Mosaic Age, had not yet fully ended and as you are aware did not end until 70 AD. with the destruction of Jerusalem. Once the Temple was destroyed the Mosaic Law and the old covenant was vanquished and the prophecies given by Christ in Matthew 24 fulfilled.

If we look again at the promise of Jer 31:31-34 this refers to the new covenant of Christ Jesus, to the better and the greater sacrifice made once and for all of His body upon the Cross.

The promise found in Jeremiah crossed referenced also to Hebrews 10 again showing that the Mosaic Law was a shadow .

There is a vast difference between the new covenant and the old one. Under the old, sacrifices must be often repeated, and after all, only pardon as to this world was to be obtained by them. And yet verse 4 rightly reminds us that it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sin. Under the new, one Sacrifice is enough to procure for all nations and ages, spiritual pardon, or being freed from punishment in the world to come. Thus this is called a new covenant.

The apostle Paul, shown already in the previous chapters of Hebrews that the tabernacle, and ordinances of the covenant of Sinai, were only emblems and types of the gospel, and concludes that the sacrifices the high priests offered continually was insufficient. As verse 8 reiterates Psalm 40 6-8 that YHWH takes no pleasure from the burnt offerings and sacrifice.

Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them ” (which are offered according to the law), then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.”He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

As you can see Verse 9 states, He takes away the first (covenant) that He may establish the second (covenant), the second is Christ.

The major reason for the Hebrews Espistle, is because many of the Jewish believers having stepped out of Judaism into Christianity now wanted to reverse things because of the persecution they were receiving from their fellow countrymen. The writer's appeal is based upon the superiority of Christ over the Judaic system. Christ is better than Moses, for He created them, He is better than the Aaronic priesthood, for His sacrifice is once and for all. He is better than the Law because He mediates a better covenant. Concisely put there is more to be gained in Christ than lost in Judaism.

Therefore what then remains?

We are seek to obtain this Sacrifice by faith; and by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit unto obedience. So that by the law being written in our hearts, we may know that we are justified, and that God will no more remember our sins.
Caral,

Therefore the Mosaic Age, had not yet fully ended and as you are aware did not end until 70 AD. with the destruction of Jerusalem. Once the Temple was destroyed the Mosaic Law and the old covenant was vanquished and the prophecies given by Christ in Matthew 24 fulfilled.

Let us consider the full context of Hebrews 8. What we must consider is the premise of Hebrew 8. Verse 1-2,"Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man."

The keyword here is High Priest. What was the job of the High Priest in the Temple? Their job was to be holy unto HaShem. They were to work in the temple. Numbers 18:1,"And the Lord spoke to Aaron, saying: You and your sons and your paternal house shall bear the sins of the holy things, and you and your sons shall bear the sins of your priesthood."

Based off of this background, we know that Hebrews 8 is dealing with the priesthood, and its duties, as spoken in Numbers 18:1.

According to Verse 1, their duties are:

1) bear the sins of the holy things
2) bear the sins of their priesthood

Verses 2-7,"And bring to yourself your brothers, levi's tribe, a division of your father, and let them be added to you, and let them minister to you, also you and your sons with you before the tent of witness. And they shall keep your guard duties and the guard duties of the tent, but they shall not approach the holy furnishings and the altar, and both they and you shall not die. And they shall be added to you, and they shall keep the guard duties of the tent of witness, according to all the ministries of the tent, and no alien shall approach you. And you shall keep the guard duties of the holy things and the guard duties of the altar, and there shall not be wrath among the sons of Israel. And as for me, I have taken your brothers the Levites from the midst of Israel's sons, as a gift given to the Lord, to minister in the ministries of the tent of witness.And you and your sons with you shall guard your priesthood for all that concerns the altar and that is within the veil; and you shall serve. I give your priesthood as a gift, and any outsider who comes near shall be put to death."

The duties displayed here are:

1) Basically to Keep guard duties of themselves and the temple

So, to Hebrews 8, we see from the premise that its referring to the priesthood and its duties, and this will carry out, as we shall see, through the whole chapter. Verse 2 of Hebrews 8 says,"a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man." As you have read in the Torah concerning the duties of the ministry of the priest in the tents. Yashah now serves in heaven, at the true tent. He is carrying out His temple duties in the heavenlies.

Verse 3,"For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer." This is also part of the high priest duties.

Now, I have established from the Torah, that Hebrews 8 is referring to the high priest, and its duties, and the ministry of Yashah. Verse 6,"But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises." It says that Yashah has contained a better "ministry." This ministry still involves the priestly duties as you saw in the Torah, except that Yashah has paid the price once and for all(Hebrews 10). His ministry is better because its no need to go to the temple to "atone for sin." Rather, yom kippur would now be a simple celebration of what Yashah has fulfilled. His ministry, enacted on better promises, is referring to His priestly duties. He forever advocates for us, and not just once a year. Isn't that better?

Now, you have mentioned that the old covenant was faultless, and you used verse 7. In order to properly understand verse 7, you must compile that with verse 8-12. Verse 7 says,"For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second." Verse 8,"For he finds fault with them when he says. So, the covenant itself, there was no fault in, for verse 8 is a continuation of verse 7, hence the use of the word "for." It was not the covenant that was of fault, but rather the PEOPLE, who were always disobeying HaShem. THEY were the fault ones. do you follow this? This is why verse 8 says,"finding fault with THEM."

The rest of the verses, which you can also find in Jeremiah 31:31-34, gives us the decrees of the NEW COVENANT:

1) Torah will be written on hearts
2) HaShem will be their God
3) Sins will forever be forgiven, never to be remembered

If Torah is decreed in the new covenant, then why do you seek to ignore this decree? Will you be an anti-Messiah, who seeks to change the times and the Torah(Daniel 7:25)? Think about these things. So, you now know, and you really do know, that Hebrews 8 is referring to the HIGH PRIESTLY ministry of Yashah, which includes Torah. Now, you know that the temple was still standing at the time Hebrews was written, and the author said that this old covenant(which deals with the priesthood ministry) is "ready to vanish away." How did this author know this? Well, we can assume that he read where Yashah said in Matt 24,"Not one stone shall be left in the temple." This covenant that is ready to vanish away is not the whole Torah, rather the earthly duties of the priests. We have a HEAVENLY priest that is ETERNAL, who is the high priest of the new covenant WITH its 3 decrees as you read above.


If we look again at the promise of Jer 31:31-34 this refers to the new covenant of Christ Jesus, to the better and the greater sacrifice made once and for all of His body upon the Cross.

One thing that Christians miss is who the new covenant WILL BE made with. Verse 31 of Jeremiah chapter 31,"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah." Who will the new covenant be made with? Israel & Judah. Do you see any Gentiles here according to Jeremiah? When did Israel & Judah come together to agree on keeping the new covenant? What scripture do you have for that event?

All covenants that HaShem creates, the other party MUST agree. Similar to a marriage, both parties must say "I do." Here is where Israel agreed WITH HaShem on the covenant... Ex 24:7,"All that the Lord has said we will do and heed." When did Israel & Judah repeat this line of scripture for the new covenant? Where in the new testament did Israel & Judah repeat that line to heed the new covenant? Until you can show this, then you have no case for proving or disproving the new covenant and whats in it.


As verse 8 reiterates Psalm 40 6-8 that YHWH takes no pleasure from the burnt offerings and sacrifice

Although it may seem like HaShem was contradicting Himself. If one does not know or read the Torah, then they may take heed to what YOU is saying. If you read the scripture closely, you will see two parts of it:

1) Sacrifice and offering you did not want
2) But ears you fashioned for me

The question would be,"What does ears have to do with sacrifice and offering? Well, for one, david is not saying that HaShem did not command burnt offerings and sacrifices. The reason for number 2 is that the MOST important thing to do is to LISTEN AND OBEY THE VOICE OF HASHEM. If you obey HaShem's voice, then you will carry out the burnt offerings and sacrifices. HaShem hates men that does His Torah, but their hearts are far from it. Thats all that Ps 40:6-8 is saying.


In closing, Caral, you have not given hard solid evidence for the Torah's disappearance. This is about simply proving from the scriptures, and even the Greek language. Torah is, and always will be, the government of the people of HaShem. Isaiah 66:22-23 states that in the new heaven and the new earth, from new month to new month, and from SABBATH TO SABBATH, all flesh shall worship HaShem. Zech 14 shows us that at the second coming of Messiah, we shall take part in the feast days. No getting around Torah, Caral. Yashah will judge them that does not keep Torah. Yashah says in Luke 11:28,"Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" Caral, get on the band wagon of obedience to Yashah, and walked as He walked. How did Yashah walk? HE KEPT TORAH!!!
James,

Thank you for your tautological post, although it is somewhat parsimonious in its scriptural and spiritual perception and in places borders on proliferating entities.

Therefore I will bow out at this point, knowing that the Lord will guide you into all truth.

Be blessed
Caral,

You might want to speak english with me with the "tautological" and "parsimonoius" words. What am I placing borders on? Why do you bow out to my response, and respond to trevor's response?
Stuart,

I would like to address the problem of Acts 15. Make sure all of your pre-conceived understandings of what I am about to say are set aside, and open your mind. Before one jumps forward to the conclusion of Acts 15, one must ask themselves,"Why did the Jerusalem council come together, and what was the problem?" The problem is laid out in Acts 15's premise, verses 1-2:

Acts 15:1-2,"But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

As we see here in Acts 15's premise, the reason why this council of Jerusalem came together, was because certain men were teaching that If you are not circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved. Paul and the Apostles came together to discuss this very matter., and its so much to the reasons they came together.

First off, we have to consider some key things before actually diving into Acts 15. Background information is critical here. Notice that these men, who were most likely Jews, was teaching that circumcision saves you, and that it is according to the custom of Moses. I have come to tell you that there is not one single verse in God's law that even hints that circumcision saves a person.

The bible does shows us that God commanded his people to be circumised, because it is the sign of the covenant He made with Abraham. The consequence of not being circumcised was being cut off from his people, and not be apart of Israel, and the covenant. The scripture states In Genesis 17:10-13,"And this is the covenant which you shall fully keep between Me and you, and between your descendants after you for their generations; every male of you shall be circumcised. And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised by you, every male throughout your generations, and the servant born in the house and he that is bought with money, of every son of a stranger, who is not of your offspring. He that is born in your house, and he that is bought with money shall surely be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

The scripture clealy shows us what circumcision really is according to the written law of Moses, and not from traditions. Get circumcised as a sign of the Abrahamic covenant. Each person, including the Gentiles that went with Israel, had to undergo this commandment.

The bible shows us that Abraham was saved before circumcision was ever a law. Romans 4:3 states,"Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” You can attest to this fact. So, the premise of Act s 15 is really showing us that its not actually the written custom of Moses that tells us salvation comes through circumcision, rather, it is the written customs of man that teaches this.

Take note of Jesus' words in Mark 7:6-8: This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.

Notice the phrase where Jesus said that they leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men. That's exactly what's happening here in Acts 15. It is the mere posing of man's traditions on the followers of Jesus and the Israelites. And so they are bringing these traditions into question at the council. These traditions are what ancient, and modern Rabbis refer to as "fences", which guard around the written law to conceal the truth of actual interpretation.

Another key thing to understand is that Jews back then, and even in this day and age, still hold the Oral law(Talmud) in higher esteem than the actual written law that is outlined in the 1st five books of the bible. In their world, and today's world, a Rabbi's word will take 1st place over,"This is what the LORD says, or it is written." This is the exact background of Acts 15.

So, now you understand that its not the custom of Moses that command circumcision for salvation, but its the custom of man that does, for Jesus said,"You leav e the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.

Now, the Apostles are there confronting this very premise, and Peter made the truth of the Gospel very clear to them all. He stated this truth in Acts 15:11,"But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

Do you see that? Peter refuted any salvation by the law, and made the Gospel statement, that we are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, and that the Gentiles will be saved the same way. Paul attested to what Peter said concerning salvation in Christ when he said in Eph 2:8-9,"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." There is no separate law, or salvation for the Jew & Gentile. All are one in Christ, and all are saved by Christ, and not the law.

Lets get to the four laws that all the Apostles agreed upon to give the Gentile believers as the intial acceptance into the Messianic Jewish community. It is the common misunderstanding, and possible deception, to believe that these four laws that were given to the Gentiles are the only laws that they will ever have to follow in their walk with Jesus. But, is this actually true?

Let us take a closer look at these 4 laws:

abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols

From scripture, and historical background information, we know t hat things that have been sacrificed to idols are food. Even Jews are not to eat anything sacrificed to pagan gods. In the Greco-Roman world, this practice was carried out in the pagan temples, where they would have feasts, and eat meat that was given to idol gods for their own pleasures. This actually breaks the 1st commandment in Exodus 20:3,"You shall have no other gods beside Me".

from blood

Dealing with Blood, Lev 17:12,"Therefore I said to the children of Israel, ‘No soul of you shall eat blood, and the stranger that abides among you shall not eat blood." Technically, the Apostles were agreeing that Gentiles follow Torah here. The word stranger here refers to Gentile peoples, for the record. If Gentiles are to live with, and be in covenant with Hebrews, then they are to adhere to their laws.

from what has been strangled

To get a clear understanding of what this actually means, one must look into the culture of the Greco-Roman people. It is shown that when these pagans do their sacrifices to eat them, they would strangle the animal, and technically, blood will be trapped in their flesh. The animal is not properly drained. Jews were commanded to stay away from this as well. Them eating strangled animals will violate the command to not eat blood. Thus, Gentiles were commanded to keep Torah here.

from sexual immorality

Lev 18 clearly gives us laws dealing with sex, and that Jews should stay away from any sexual conduct that violates Torah. Gentiles were to do the same thing, and hence, they are following Torah on here.

What am I showing? I am showing that Gentiles still obeyed Torah, and I am also showing you that these four laws were what the pagans actually did. In other words, they ate meat given to idols, things strangled, ate blood, and fornicated.

But why give them just these four laws to obey? The answer is interesting here.

Jews of that time were already offended that uncircumcised people(Gentiles) were going into the courts, and synagogues, learning their laws. They did not even want to be around Gentiles. In order to not offend the Jewish community, and, in other words, make them feel good, the Apostles wanted these Gentiles to keep these four basic laws that everyone agreed on to get them accepted into the community. By the Apostles agreeing to these four laws, they would be accepted by the Jews, and this would lead to the understanding of verse 21.

James also states a great statement that most Christians miss. He stated in acts 15:21,"For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

In other words, Every city has someone teaching God's laws every Sabbath, and eventually, the Gentile believer would learn of their new God, and his laws every sabbath. In fact, this is the only time they could hear the Old Testament---The Sabbath! By doing this, th ese new Gentile believers would also be learning about the Sabbath day and how to keep it. It would not make sense to cram every law of the Torah down their thrats right then and there, therefore, they would learn all the law every Sabbath. James gave those laws to get them accepted into the community, and to start them off with the law, which is the right thing to do with Gentiles who were not born into the Hebrew faith.

One may mention Acts 15:10 where it talks about putting yokes around the necks of the Apostles, and others that want to follow God. The yoke is not the law of God. The Law of God was never looked on as a yoke of burden. If that was true, then all the prophets would have been in trouble, and they would not have blessed God's law. Paul said in Romans 3:31,"Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law." Its no use to uphold a law that is burdensome, and cannot be kept. God's word declares that we can keep his law, and its not a burden. Duet 30:11,"For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off."

In fact, Paul stated in romans 7:12,"So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." No burden at all. 1 John 5:3 states that Gods commandments are NOT burdensome. So, the yoke he mentions is not referring to the Law itself, but of the TRADITIONS OF MAN, which these traditions forces the law to become a burden to men.

This is why they did not want to put everything on these new Gentile believers. They would eventually learn the Law every Sabbath(Acts 15:21), so that they will learn the TRUTH of the law so that it would not be a burden resulting from Men's traditions. I believe I have addressed this problem of Acts 15, and I hope your mind stays open to learning of the wonders of God's holy law and prophets, for it is the foundation for which all of God's word incepts(begins).

1 John 5:3,"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."

Shalom
Shalom Stuart,

To my knowledge, I am not of Hebrew heritage. I am not a Christian. I practice Nazarene Judaism. We believe in Yashah Messiah who came to die for His people. We keep the Torah that HaShem has commanded His people to keep.
Stuart,

Yashah is Messiah's Hebrew name.
Stuart,

The Christian Messiah is different than the Jewish Messiah. The Christian Messiah did not teach Torah, neither did He tell His students to teach it. The Jewish Messiah kept Torah, and taught His students to keep and teach others.
Stuart,

I cannot help what is true. I encourage you to research your own faith of Christianity, and re-examine your beliefs from a Hebrew perspective. Do not be afraid.
Stuart,

Whats wrong?
Stuart,

To my knowledge, I am not of Hebrew blood. Btw, that sorrow song.. thats how I feel about lawless Christianity.
Stuart,

Are you Christian, Hebrew Israelite.. what?

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