I too have to respond to a certain point that you choose, Mr. Gill:
Della Morton Said:"If echad does not mean one in number, then we have no defense against polytheism, because three (or more) separate gods could be one in unity of mind and purpose. However, it is clearly the intent of the Old Testament to deny polytheism, and it does use echad to mean one in numerical value."
The polytheistic mindset says that multiple beings have multiple mindsets with multiple agendas, each having thus their own theocracy. The Monotheistic GOD of Israel is One GOD (literal translation "Judge") in three beings: Father, Son Holy Spirit. If the Father and the Son were the same being, then there would literally be no need for a Father-Son relationship to ever be mentioned in the Bible. However, the Bible strictly speaks of a relationship between the two as "two who love each other" (John 14:31; John 15:1-10; John 17), not "one who loves Himself in two ways". The Oneness doctrine says that since JESUS says that the FATHER is "in Him", then He literally is saying that He is the FATHER. This is not so, for they have altogether ignored the prayer of CHRIST:
"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them."
JESUS prayed that we be one in unity like He and the Father are one in unity, not in numerical singularity. By Oneness doctrine's theory however, if we are one like He and the Father are one, then I will literally be you, and you will literally be me, like one literal numerical person with multiple mindsets. However, JESUS prayed for a oneness in unity amongst the Church not singularity, just as He has a unity with the Father, not singularity.
It is interesting that our very own Supreme Court system understands such a unity, and yet the Oneness do not. The Supreme Court is made up of multiple Judges and yet their decision is one decision by the Court. One man/woman will speak on behalf of the Court once the final decision is made. The Supreme Court of the USA is "One Court with multiple Judges", yet all finally agree as One Judge/Judgment. Likewise, there is One GOD (literal translation is the word Judge) and one Judgment, manifest in three Beings, GOD (Judge) the FATHER, GOD (Judge) the Son, and GOD (Judge) the Holy Spirit, and the three are one (in unity).
Sister, May I add, humbly that the Hebrew word Echad, in it's base form, means AGREEMENT or UNITY. Just a fact that I researched. The word is one of the most debated words in the apologetics of the Oneness vs Trinity clash, and Deuteronomy 6:4 is the basis of the argument. Echad does mean One, but it's context and origin means AGREEMENT and UNITY.
Mr Gill: The Old Testament does not teach or imply a plurality of persons in the Godhead. I can satisfactorily explain all Old Testament passages used by some trinitarians to teach a plurality of persons, harmonizing them with the many other passages that unequivocally teach strict monotheism. Certainly the Jews have found no difficulty in accepting all the Old Testament as God's Word and at the same time adhering to their belief in one indivisible God. From start to finish, and without contradiction, the Old Testament teaches the beautiful truth of one God!
Sis. Morton, if you have to "explain" the Old Testament passages that are offered, can't you at least admit that there is an implication (albeit false in your learned opinion) of a plurality of persons in the Godhead?
How about defining the term "Godhead", because according to scholars, the term is a poor translation of the Greek word. Once you grasp the significance of that Greek term, you may see things as they truly are. Oneness doctrine teachers always cling to the term Godhead, but I have NEVER heard them break it down from the original Greek. This will require you to actually use a Greek lexicon, instead of just numerous scriptures. Care to take a shot, or should I do it for you?
Throughout the Bible God has used many names for his people to identify him. We will look at a few of these and see if they might tie into the words of Jesus.
The Bible begins with a reference to God. "In the beginning God…" This is the Hebrew word "Elohim." There are about 2,570 references to God as Elohim in the Old Testament. Elohim refers to
God's creative and governing powers, his omnipotence and sovereignty.
God is also referred to by the Hebrew word "El." This means God Almighty. There are around 250 such references.
It is in Exodus 6:3, that God first introduces himself as Jehovah. This is the way he is referred to most frequently, around 6,823 times this name is used. Although its actual reference only appears four times in the
KJV it is often indicated by the all upper-case letters "LORD." This
name is interpreted as the Self-Existing One. This name is often used in a
compound manner. We will look at some of these as they give insight to
attributes of God.
JEHOVAH-JIREH, the LORD will Provide. Gen. 22:8, 14
JEHOVAH-RAPHA, the LORD that Healeth thee. Ex. 15:26
JEHOVAH-NISSI, the LORD is our Banner (victory). Ex. 17:15
JEHOVAH-M'KADDESH, the LORD our Sanctifier. Ex. 31:13, Lev. 20:8
JEHOVAH-SHALOM, the LORD our Peace. Judges 6:23 &24
JEHOVAH-RAAH, the LORD is my Shepherd. Ps. 23:1
JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU, the LORD is our Righteousness. Jer. 23:6
JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH, the LORD is There (ever present). Ez. 48:35
These are all references made to JEHOVAH in the Old Testament. However, in the New Testament a very special thing happens. The Book of Matthew opens with a clue as to what this is. Matt. 1:23. Behold a virgin
shall be with child, …and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being
interpreted is, God with us." Who was this child that would be born of a
virgin? This child would be JEHOVAH in flesh!
This child that was born in Bethlehem would fulfill over three hundred Old Testament prophesies. One such prophecy was he would be proceeded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3*) "The voice of him who cries in the
wilderness: Prepare the way of Jehovah; make straight in the dessert a highway
for our God." * Indicates verse is from the Hebrew-Greek Interlinear Bible
(Hendrickson) All other references are King James.
This prophecy tells us Jehovah is coming! This was fulfilled in Mark 1:2 & 3. But if John is the messenger, then Jesus is Jehovah! Is this possible? What would this imply, if it is true?
If Jesus is Jehovah, then he would surely have the same attributes. Let us compare the various attributes of Jehovah to Jesus.
The first was provider. We can even be more specific if we look at what happened in Gen. 22. Abraham is on his way to offer Isaac as a sacrifice to God. In verse 8, Abraham makes a prophetic statement that at the
time was a word of faith. "God will provide himself a lamb…" In the
Book of John we find Jesus beginning his ministry. John 1:29, "Behold the
Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." God did provide
Abraham a sacrifice at that time, and God provided himself a Lamb for our
sacrifice in Jesus Christ. In Phil. 4:19 he promised "to supply all your
need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus."
The next attribute was that of healer. Jesus most definitely fulfilled this aspect. Matt. 4:23. "And Jesus went about… healing all manner of disease among the people." The greatest is the
healing of a sinful heart.
It is Jesus that gives us victory. "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 15:57. 1 John 5:5, "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that
believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" Yes, our victories are only
Jesus is our sanctifier. Heb.10:10. "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of Jesus Christ once for all." Also in Heb. 13:12, "Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the
people with his own blood…"
When the angels proclaimed the birth of Jesus in Luke 2:14, they said, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men." Jesus is that perfect peace. "Peace I leave with
you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you."
In John 10:11-14, Jesus tells us he is the "Good Shepherd." Verse 16 tells us there is just ONE shepherd. Matt. 26:31, he is the shepherd that is smitten and the sheep (disciples) scatter. Heb. 13:20,
"…our lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep…" See also 1
Since our righteousness is filthy rags (Isa. 64:6), we most definitely need the righteousness Jesus provides. Jesus fulfilled all righteousness, Matt. 3:15. Rom. 3:22, "Even the righteousness of God which
is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all who believe." "For
he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the
righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor. 5:21. See also Phil. 3:9.
The last comparison we will look at now is "the LORD is there." Col. 1:19, "For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;" The prophesy we already considered from
Isa. 7:14, "…and shall call his name Immanuel." God with us! Truly
God dwelt with his people in a special way. "…we have seen with our eyes,
which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For
the life was manifested, and we have seen it…)" 1 John 1:1-2 Jesus was
God manifest in the flesh. "And, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end
of the world." Matt. 28:20. He is still with us today!
After such a dissertation as this you may feel that we have lost track of our original question. This is not the case. We are simply viewing the person of Christ from a different angle. Most people see Jesus as the second
person in a trinity. Others feel he is the mighty God, second to the Almighty
God. I do not feel such claims can be fully substantiated in Scripture. God has
emphatically declared his oneness throughout the Bible. Almost 10,000 times in
the Old Testament he is referred to with no hint of having collateral persons
with him. The problem people seem to have is they try to separate God into the
manners he has manifested himself. And although there are many ways God has
manifest himself, they seem to focus on the primary manifestations of our
dispensation. Specifically, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Hopefully, somehow
minds that have been blinded will be opened. "In whom the God of this world
hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious
gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." 2 Cor.
As you recall from Gen. 1, we are made in the image of God. You possess a body, soul, and spirit. Yet, how many persons are you? One! How many names do you go by? You have one primary name. God is a Spirit. If we
could compare it would be as though our spirit existed before we took on
flesh. For we know the Spirit of God existed before he manifest himself in
flesh. Jesus was the body God dwelt in. And he does have one primary name. The
There is one more compound form of Jehovah we will look at. That being JEHOVAH-JESUS or Jehovah is Salvation. In the Old Testament Jehovah was very explicit in proclaiming his oneness. Isa. 44:24*. "So says
Jehovah, your Redeemer and your Former from the womb; I am Jehovah who makes all
things; stretching out the heavens; I alone, spreading out the earth. Who was
with me?" He is very emphatic in letting us know who gets the credit. Isa.
42:8*. "I am Jehovah; that is My name; and I will not give my glory to
another, nor My praise to engraved images." Not only did he make all
things, he alone is the Savior. There is none before or after him. Isa.
43:10-11*. "You are my witnesses, says Jehovah; and My servant whom I have
chosen; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me
there was no god formed; neither shall any be after Me. I, I am Jehovah; and
there is no Savior besides Me." Jehovah is the only Savior!
Let's consider something. You are going to make a image of yourself. This image is to represent You. What are you going to name it? Tom? Bill? Bob? Of course not! You will give it YOUR name! God prepares a body to
dwell in (Heb. 10:5). What will he name it? Notice this is the "express
image of his person." Heb. 1:3. Jesus tells us in John 17:26, "and I
have declared unto them thy name…" This is in reference back to the
Father mentioned at the start of verse 25. Do you know the name of the Father?
Jesus declared it. He not only declared it. He manifested the name! John 17:6,
"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the
world…" Is there a difference between declaring and manifesting? To
declare means: "To state officially, formally, or authoritatively. To make
clear." There are some similarities to the meanings. Manifest:
"Clearly apparent, esp. to the sight; obvious. To show plainly;
reveal. To be evidence of; prove." So Jesus showed plainly the Father's
name! Is there still a question in your mind what the name is? There shouldn't
Sometimes we are confused by the terms Father and Son. They are used because the Spirit Fathered a Son, his own body. Col. 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God." Look at Isa. 9:6, the prophecy
concerning Jesus. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and
the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called
Wonderful, Councellor, the Mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of
Peace." This includes some of the attributes of Jehovah, governing, and
peace. But notice this Son is The Mighty God, The
everlasting Father! Wow! It was prophesied the son would be the Father!
How can Jesus be the Father? The eternal Spirit simply took on flesh (or wore
flesh) fulfilling prophecy.
Let's look at what Jesus had to say about this. "…no man cometh to the Father but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." John
14:6-7. Jesus said that His disciples knew the Father and had seen him!
He went on to say in verse 9, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet
hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and
how sayest thou, Shew us the Father?" When you see Jesus, you see the
Father. When you know Jesus, you know the Father? John 8:24-27*,
"Therefore, I said unto you that you shall die in your sins. For if you do
not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins. Then they said unto him, Who
are you? And Jesus said to them, Altogether what I also say to you. I have many
things to say and to judge concerning you, but One sending Me is true,
and what I heard from Him, these things I say to the world. They did not know
that He spoke to them of the Father."
Jesus said he is the I AM! So Jesus is Jehovah! Jesus said in John 10:30, "I and my Father are one." So the name of the Father, Jesus plainly revealed is Jesus!
One of the most obvious verses that shows Jehovah is Jesus is found in Acts 9:5. "And he (Saul) said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus…" Knowing Saul's educational background and his
realizing the supernatural aspect of this encounter, there is no doubt this
question is actually, Who art thou Jehovah? Answer: Jesus!
If Jehovah is the only Savior, then why was it said of Saul that he would bear the name of Jesus before the Gentiles? Why be a witness to Jesus, (Acts 1:8)? Because Jesus is Jehovah!
As one reads through the New Testament, the importance of Jesus name is repeated over and over again. "And whatsoever you do in word or deed do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the
Father by him." Col. 3:17. Listen to the importance the Apostle Peter
placed on the name when he said, "Neither is there salvation in any other:
for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be
saved." You will not find another name in the entire Bible that is given
equal or more honor and glory than Jesus name. There is an interesting verse in
Zechariah 14:9*, relating to God's name. "And Jehovah shall be king over
all the earth. In that day there shall be one Jehovah, and his name one."
After all the verses we have looked at do you wonder what that one name will be?
"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and in earth, and things under the earth; And that every
tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the
Father." Phil. 2;2:9-11
One day all will acknowledge Jehovah, the Father, the Eternal Spirit, the One True God, who took on flesh, by his fleshly name. "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the
flesh…" 1 Tim 3:16. This manifestation of God was without a doubt Jesus
"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." 1 John 2:23. Why is this? Because the name of the Father was manifest plainly. If
Jesus is not the name of the Father, then the name of the Father is NOT
in the New Testament! But the name of Jesus is found 942 times in the
New Testament. The name God chose for himself for eternity. For Eph. 1:20-23
"Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principalities, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is
named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put
all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the
church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all."
Someday all will know and will see. The one who's name is above every name, (even other names God has used). The one who loved us so much he would die for us. We will see him face to face. The only face God ever had or
will have, the face of Jesus Christ! For he manifested the Father's name!
Great subject. . . Some not so great answers. (Latin???) Even klingon has more scriptural credibility. (humor)
I think it's interesting that when YHVH identifies who he is to Moshe He said (transliterated):
"V'amar anochi ELOHI. . . "
ויאמר אנכי אלהי
"I am the Elohi"
He doesn't refer to Himself here as Elohim but rather Elohi.
In Psalms 50:7 part of the sentence is:
אלהים אלהיך אנכי
Elohim eloe-cha anochi.
"Elohim Your Eloecha I"
I probably wouldn't get too caught up in the use of the plural form of the word because much of this is due to the uniqueness of the Hebrew language.
Interestingly enough, in the Aramaic English New Testament the term Alaha is used in several places referring to YHVH. Because it's Aramaic notice how similar that is to the Arab form of Allah but don't let that wigg you out. It took me a while to get used to it.
In Isaiah 11:2 it is clear that the attributes of YHVH are manifested in seven spirits which is most likely why we have a beautiful 7 branch Menorah that represents the seven Ruachim (spirits) of YHVH in THE throne room.
The Spirit of YHVH
The Spirit of Wisdom
The Spirit of Understanding
The Spirit of Counsel
The Spirit of Might
The Spirit of Knowledge
The Spirit of the Fear of YHVH
Revelation 4:5 also speaks of the seven lamps (menorah) burning before the throne which are the seven Ruachim (Spirits) of Elohim.
The plurality does make sense but we are reminded that He does say as noted earlier that YHVH is ONE.
שׁמע ישׂראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד׃
Transliterated: Shema Israel YHVH ELOHEYNOO YHVH echad.
Last but not least, if you look at the word EL in Hebrew and Ancient Paleo Hebrew we find some amazing features in the picture word play on the word of EL. The following is a screen shot of a study tool that I have on the enhanced e-sword that was developed by Mark 16 Ministries. You can see the Paleo Hebrew picture-graphs which has an interesting message that is seen only when you are able to see the Paleo Hebrew:
Mark 16 Ministries has the entire bible available in Ancient Paleo Hebrew, and Middle Hebrew.
exactly how many languages do i need to learn to understand the Lord?
1 Corinthians 14:14-16, 21
14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.