If Yeshua kept Torah, and Paul did not, then who would you follow & obey?

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If I could piggy-back on your question, here is one better; Jesus said the following:

Matt.19
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He then goes on to name some of the commandments that are to be kept if we desire to enter into life;

[18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Now there are some on this forum that THINK Paul said God's commandments were nailoed to His cross.

Should you follow the one that GAVE the commandments, or the one you THINK said they were nailed to the cross?

Mind you, Paul himself kept God's commandments. Let's read;

Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So as Paul ask, I ask the same thing, "Is God's law sin?"
Amen
Brother Pierce,

Your issue should be :

YESHUA AND PAUL VERSUS TORAH

This refomulation is closer to the truth. It lines up with the Holy Scriptures for Paul was a true and faithful servant of Jesus Christ. All the Bible tells you so.

May God open your eyes!

Blessings,

Bro. Germain
Brother Pierce,

You have a serious problem. Your problem lies in the fact that you still don't know that THE FORMER SHAUL HAS BEEN CONVERTED.

After his conversion, did Brother Paul keep the Sabbath? No he didn’t.

Before his conversion, Saul, as a Pharisee and a son of Pharisee, kept the Sabbath. As all Jewish boys of his age, he has been taught by a teacher named Gamaliel.

According to Saul, Jesus Christ was an object of scandal that was facing all forms of authority.

Saul loved God, but above all he loved his science, the tradition of those who had preceded him, even if this would cause the death of men or women.

Indeed, he recognized himself as a responsible for the condemnation and the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7: 54-60)

Yes, as a Pharisee, “Saul was there, giving approval to his death. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison”.

Acts 8:1-4

Please, let us listen to Brother Paul’s own testimony:

"Brothers and fathers, listen now to my defense." When they heard him speak to them in Aramaic, they became very quiet. Then Paul said: "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today. I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison, as also the high priest and all the Council can testify. I even obtained letters from them to their brothers in Damascus, and went there to bring these people as prisoners to Jerusalem to be punished. "About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?' " 'Who are you, Lord?' I asked. " 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied. My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me. "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.' My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me. "A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. He stood beside me and said, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight!' And at that very moment I was able to see him. "Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'
"When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance and saw the Lord speaking. 'Quick!' he said to me. 'Leave Jerusalem immediately, because they will not accept your testimony about me.' " 'Lord,' I replied, 'these men know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you. And when the blood of your martyr Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.' "Then the Lord said to me, 'Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles.' "

Acts 22: 1-21

Dear brothers and sisters, zealous for the law today, Brother Paul tell you that Under Gamaliel he was thoroughly trained in the law of his fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.

He persecuted the followers of this Way (the way of Jesus Christ) to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison.

Do you understand his testimony?

At that moment Saul undoubtedly kept the Sabbath.

Saul received instruction at the feet of a Doctor of the Jewish law called Gamaliel (Acts 22: 3). Saul was registered in the “Pharisees’ biblical institute”.

But, when he truly met Jesus-Christ on the road of Damascus, he was made blind as for the theology, or the acquired human knowledge. God, to use him had to get him rid of his theological knowledge received in the pastoral school of Gamaliel.

Why?

Simply because God has nothing to do with the foreign doctrines, traditions and all that theologians add to the Gospel. God is strictly related to His Word.

Indeed our Lord Jesus said:

"Be careful," Jesus said to them. "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees." They discussed this among themselves and said, "It is because we didn't bring any bread." Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, "You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? Do you still not understand? Don't you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? How is it you don't understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Matthew 16: 6-12

"A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough."

Galatians 5:9

When Annanias prayed for Saul, he received the Holy Spirit and his eyes were open as for the celestial things. He could from now on understand the quintessence of the Word of God.

That was not possible in the past in spite of his stock of general knowledge and his theological background.

“Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized.”

Acts 9: 18

What do those scales represent?

They represent Saul’s theological programs, his old state of mind. He was born again.

This stage is essential for any servant of God. One needs the baptism of the Holy Spirit before preaching the Gospel. It’s not a question of theological degree but it’s a question of receiving the Holy Spirit that God gives to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32)

Since this time, the name of Saul was changed. Not only his name, but also his thought and his way of speaking changed. Then he could say this:

“I want you to know, brothers that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.”

Galatians 1:11-12

According to you, was his theological knowledge received in the past useful?

We ought to make the same Holy Spirit baptism experience like that of Paul before understanding well the Gospel.

Brother Paul’s way of speaking changed, then he said:

“I speak the truth in Christ - I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit”

Romans 9:1

He finally knew that the Torah and the Prophets had been fulfilled fully in Him who was crucified and resurrected, namely Jesus Christ.

Then, he could say:

“What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame”.

Romans 9:30-33

Brother Paul received the revelation that “…the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is BY FAITH; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works…”

Now I ask you again:

WHAT IS YOUR STANDARD OF RIGHTOUSNESS?

THAT OF THE FAITH OR THAT OF THE LAW?

Please, Make your choice!

Brother Paul realized that God’s righteousness could be reached not by observing the Law, but by believing in Jesus Christ.

Then He could say:

“Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes”.

Romans 10:1-4

Do you have the revelation of God’s righteousness?

IS YOUR ZEAL BASED ON KNOWLEDGE? I wonder!

Let me tell you that “Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes”. Amen! Amen! Amen!

CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW!!!!!!!!

If the Bible is your absolute, then say Amen to that!

AFTER HIS CONVERSION BROTHER PAUL NEVER KEPT THE SABBATH!

Let’s see the teaching of Brother Paul:

"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you: " 'Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you. As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:38-42

Brother Paul was speaking about JESUS CHRIST. He said that through him everyone who believes is justified from everything she/he could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Brother Paul was not teaching people to observe the Sabbath day. But he was persuading them to believe in Jesus Christ! Amen!

THROUGH JESUS CHRIST EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IS JUSTIFIED FROM EVERYTHING WE COULD NOT BE JUSTIFIED FROM BY THE LAW OF MOSES. Amen!

If the Bible is your absolute, then say Amen to that!

I’m teaching the same to you today: You can not be justified by the law of Moses.

Indeed, Brother Paul said:

"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”

Galatians 2:15-16

This was the teaching of Brother Paul and Barnabas in the synagogue (Acts 13: 38- 42). The

The Jews and the Gentiles invited them to speak further about the same things on the next Sabbath.

It was all about JESUS CHRIST. Nothing but JESUS CHRIST! Nothing more, nothing less!

what did Brother Paul persuade Jews and Greeks to do?

Let’s see it:

“Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. But when the Jews opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am clear of my responsibility. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."

Acts 18:4-6

According to the passage above, Brother Paul was persuading Jews and Greeks to recognize that JESUS WAS THE CHRIST.

This was the Teaching of Paul. It was all about JESUS. Nothing but JESUS CHRIST! Nothing more, nothing less!

If Brother Paul were persuading Gentiles to observe the Sabbath, then, why does this passage states that Jews opposed Paul and became abusive?

Wy did Brother Paul shake out his clothes in protest and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads?

Why did he say “From now on I will go to the Gentiles”?

Did Brother Paul went to the Gentiles to enforce the Sabbath observance on them?

What is the law of the new faith of the Gentiles who come to Christ?

The law of their new faith is the law of Christ.

And that law states that man is not justified by observing the law of Moses, but by faith in Jesus Christ. This was the preaching of Brother Paul every Sabbath in the synagogue.

However, Brother Paul was censored because of that.

Besides, Jesus Christ of whom he was making his testimony had been also censured before him in the Sabbath day (Mark 2: 23-28; 31: 1-7).

Can you tell me why Jesus - Christ and His Apostle Paul were censored in the Sabbath day?

Please, bear this in your mind: the fact the gentiles believers enter a synagogue to attend church in the Sabbath day, does not mean that it is to observe the Sabbath.

The fact that Paul or Jesus Christ enters a synagogue to teach in the Sabbath day, does not mean that it is to preach the Sabbath or observe the Sabbath.

Obviously, with no work being done on the Sabbath day, that would make the Sabbath day the ideal day to teach the Gospel.

Jesus Christ used to seize every opportunity to preach the good News: during a feast (John 10:22-24), a wedding (John 2) or the Sabbath day and so on.

Brother Paul never entered a synagogue to preach a Sabbath doctrine or to observe the Sabbath.

He used to attend the church during the Sabbath day, in the synagogue with a view to preach Christ crucified.

Indeed, he said:

“For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.”

1 Corinthians 2:2

Besides, Brother Moreh, in Romans 7:22 Brother Paul was not speaking about the Torah.

There is no contradiction in the teachings of Brother Paul. Please, do not distort his teachings for your own destruction.

God's law according to Romans 7:22 is not the Torah. No!

Let us see what Bro. Paul said later in Romans chapter 8:

"2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death".

Romans 8:2

Therefore, Romans 7:22 deals with THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE THROUGH JESUS.

Amen!

THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE THROUGH JESUS VERSUS THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

God open your eyes!

Bro. Germain
You say the following; "AFTER HIS CONVERSION BROTHER PAUL NEVER KEPT THE SABBATH!"

Now let's read what the Holy word of God says:


Acts 13
[13] Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.
[14] But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Did you catch which day Paul went into the synagogue? That's right.....it was God's 7th day Sabbath!! Mind you this is AFTER Paul's name was changed from Saul to Paul. So yes this was AFTER Paul's conversion!! Let's read more!

[15] And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
[16] Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

So Paul continued to keep God's Sabbath. Let's read more!

[42] And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Now let's read to find out what Paul did on the following Sabbath;

[44] And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Looks like Paul continued to keep God's 7th day Sabbath! And there is STILL more!

Acts.17
[2] And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

AND MORE!!!

Acts.18
[4] And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Now notice who it was that was contradicting and blaspheming! Was it Paul? NO! It was the Jews, because they were filled with envy.

Acts 13
[45] But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

So Pauls teaching on the Sabbath was not an issue at all. It was the envy of the Jews and because of their ENVY they started to contradict and blasphem.

Now what was that statement you made in error about Paul?
Brother,

To keep the sabbath, what does it mean?

For instance, If I go to the USA today and I enter your synagogue during the Sabbath day, with a view to preach Christ crucified, can that act make me a true sabbath keeper?


Besides, would you be so kind as to explain me the following verses?

1- "6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises"

2-"13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear".

Hebrews 8: 6,13

I thank you in advance.

Bro. Germain
You ask, "To keep the Sabbath, what does it mean?" For God it means the following:

The Sabbath is for rest. Exod.35:2
We ARE to come together to worship the Lord. Lev.26:2
We are NOT to cook on Gods Sabbath. Exod.16:23
We are NOT to buy or sell on Gods Sabbath. Neh.13:15-22
We are NOT to do our own will or pleasures. Isa.58:13

This is how God instructs us to keep HIS Sabbath.

As for explaining the other part of your post let's read what was at fault;

Heb.8
[7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
[8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Notice WHAT was at fault. Read verse 8 above again to see just what was at fault:

FOR FINDING FAULT WITH THEM!!!!! There is NOTHING wrong with the laws of God. It was the PEOPLE God found fault with, NOT His covenant!!!

Now here is a question for you. The following is an event that will take place during Christ 1000 year rule on this earth. Let's read what it says;

Isa.66
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.


Do you think THAT SABBATH will be the same SABBATH that God said will be an everlasting covenant?
Do you think He will say, “Don’t worry about the day, just pick ANY one and serve and worship me.”
Do you think at that time those that worship God will have a choice in the matter as far as which day they say is the Sabbath?
Do you think this Sabbath is ONLY for the nation of Israel during Christ 1000 year rule?

Something we must consider is this, just how long is FOREVER? After all, what is a perpetual covenant to God? Let’s read.

EXODUS 31:
[16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Now I know some are saying that this is for the nation of Israel. Well is it really? Let's see what the scriptures have to say:

ISAIAH 56:
[2] Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

So this covenant is not just for the nations of Israel, but for all those that join themselves to worship the God of Israel.

Now if you could be so kind to answer my questions!!
Brother,

I will be kind to answer all your questions by the statement below:

“You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?”

Galatians 3:1-5

Yes, “You foolish Torah keepers!
You foolish Sabbath keepers!
You foolish zealous for the law!

Who has bewitched you?

Please, tell me!

Who has bewitched you?

Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?”

May God enlighten you!

This is my prayer!

Brother Germain
Germain,

No one in Yeshua takes on the curse of the Torah. But, obedience to Torah still counts, as you will be judge by faith & Torah. Yeshua did not make all the Torah done away. That would contradict, and YOU KNOW THIS. He only canceled out the curse, for he became a curse. You cannot forget that the new covenant includes Torah(Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:8-12).
3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
Germain,

It is about obedience. Matt 7:21-23
Brother Pierce,

Do you see the TORAH in Matthew 7:21-23?

I realize that Torah keepers usually quote Matthew 7:21-23 with a view to frigthen the born again believers in Christ.

Let us see closely this biblical passage:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Matthew 7:21-23

Brother Pierce do you truly know the will of the Father of Jesus Christ who is in heaven?

What is the will of the Father of Jesus Christ who is in heaven?

Who is the Father of Jesus Christ?

Who is Jesus Christ ?

Who is speaking in Matthew 7:21-23?

Moses? No!

Jesus? Yes!

Was Jesus Christ speaking about Torah keeping? No!

Jesus was speaking about EVILDOERS?

Those who don't do the will of His Father Who is in heaven are EVILDOERS?

Now, please, explain me this:

How can one become an EVILDOER or a lawless one if she or he follows thoroughly the law of Christ?

Indeed, the Bible declares:

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame”.

Romans 9:30-33

THROUGH JESUS CHRIST EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IS JUSTIFIED FROM EVERYTHING WE COULD NOT BE JUSTIFIED FROM BY THE LAW OF MOSES.

Amen!

THE FAITH VICTORY OF WHICH HAS OVERCOME THE WORLD COMES FROM HEARING THE MESSAGE, AND THE MESSAGE IS HEARD THROUGH THE WORD OF CHRIST.

WE BELIEVE IT IS THROUGH THE GRACE OF OUR LORD JESUS THAT WE ARE SAVED

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast”.

Ephesians 2:8-9

Besides, the grace is not a license to sin (Titus 2:11-14; 1 John 3:9).

What is the law of the new faith of the Gentiles who come to Christ?

The law of their new faith is the law of Christ.

And that law states that man is not justified by observing the law of Moses, but by faith in Jesus Christ(Galatians 2:15-16).

This was the preaching of Brother Paul every Sabbath in the synagogue.

The law is not abolished But Jesus came to perfect the law, because the law can not save anybody:

“For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Romans 5:19-21

Brother Pierce, you are talking about OBEDIENCE.

Obedience to the Torah or obedience toward the law of Christ?

Let me tell you that through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Yes, through the obedience of Jesus-Christ the many will be made righteous.

So, how can Jesus Christ call those who have been made righteous through His obedience EVILDOERS?

I wonder!

May God open the eyes of all the zealous for the law of Moses!

« He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

Revelation 3:22

Bro. Germain

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