Do you believe Yahweh to be "Trinitarian"? Did ancient Jews believe it?

[James Pierce]

?

[Eemah Martha aka Hephzybah]

Perhaps, Moreh is correct but I must say there is division on this topic even with those "walking in Truths." This is the only area where my Sis refuses to budge in her Christian beliefs. To do, in her eyes and in mine own for some time, indicated a leaning toward the so-called Torah Centered Hebrew Israelites. This was the one concept, which I know caused her to drift back to the Christian Faith and abandon Hebraic Truths. I once had a long email debate on this topic and the answers made no sense to me even today. Even at a Gathering of Believers, this topic had different beliefs. One Moreh expressed my sentiments: You either believe in One God or You are saying there are three Gods or You are saying Yeshua is not a diety as many make clear in HisSpace Forums. So which is it, Hebrews?

Now... I once googled where did the trinity concept come from. I found a very interesting link.... Fellow group members both Christians and Hebrews, please take a moment to review and let me know if it sounds like Truth.

The three monotheistic religions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - all purport to share one fundamental concept: belief in God as the Supreme Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Known as "tawhid" in Islam, this concept of the Oneness of God was stressed by Moses in a Biblical passage known as the "Shema," or the Jewish creed of faith: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus when he said: "...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)

Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same message again: "And your God is One God: There is no God but He, ..." (The Qur'an 2:163)

Christianity has digressed from the concept of the Oneness of God, however, into a vague and mysterious doctrine that was formulated during the fourth century. This doctrine, which continues to be a source of controversy both within and without the Christian religion, is known as the Doctrine of the Trinity. Simply put, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity states that God is the union of three divine persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - in one divine being.

If that concept, put in basic terms, sounds confusing, the flowery language in the actual text of the doctrine lends even more mystery to the matter:

"...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity... for there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost is all one... they are not three gods, but one God... the whole three persons are co-eternal and co-equal... he therefore that will be save must thus think of the Trinity..." (excerpts from the Athanasian Creed)

Let's put this together in a different form: one person, God the Father + one person, God the Son + one person, God the Holy Ghost = one person, God the What? Is this English or is this gibberish? It is said that Athanasius, the bishop who formulated this doctrine, confessed that the more he wrote on the matter, the less capable he was of clearly expressing his thoughts regarding it.

How did such a confusing doctrine get its start?

References in the Bible to a Trinity of divine beings are vague, at best.

In Matthew 28:19, we find Jesus telling his disciples to go out and preach to all nations. While the "Great Commission" does make mention of the three persons who later become components of the Trinity, the phrase "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" is quite clearly an addition to Biblical text - that is, not the actual words of Jesus - as can be seen by two factors:

1) Baptism in the early Church, as discussed by Paul in his letters, was done only in the name of Jesus; and

2) The "Great Commission" was found in the first gospel written, that of Mark, bears no mention of Father, Son and/or Holy Ghost - see Mark 16:15.

The only other reference in the Bible to a Trinity can be found in the Epistle of I John 5:7, Biblical scholars of today, however, have admitted that the phrase "...there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is definitely a "later addition" to Biblical test, and it is not found in any of today's versions of the Bible.

It can, therefore, be seen that the concept of a Trinity of divine beings was not an idea put forth by Jesus or any other prophet of God. This doctrine, now subscribed to by Christians all over the world, is entirely man-made in origin.

To read the source:
http://saif_w.tripod.com/interfaith/christianity/in_where_did_the_t...

[Eemah Martha aka Hephzybah]

I like putting scriptures front and center. The article referred to these as the supporting scriptures to the Trinity:
Matthew 28:
19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1 John 5
5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Yahshua is the Son of Elohim?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Yahshua Ha Mashiyach; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.

7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``

29 Yahshua answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; Yahweh our Elohim, Yahweh is one:



Now what bothers me about how we use the Hebrew - Elohim oppose to Islam's use of Allah (which would be El in Hebrew) is that their expression of G-d is singular and Elohim is plural. This in itself suggests that we are speaking of more than one.

According to the article, - Six weeks after the 300 bishops first gathered at Nicea in 325, the doctrine of the Trinity was hammered out. The God of the Christians was now seen as having three essences, or natures, in the form of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The majority of Christians, when asked to explain this fundamental doctrine of their faith, can offer nothing more than "I believe it because I was told to do so." It is explained away as "mystery" - yet the Bible says in I Corinthians 14:33 that "... God is not the author of confusion..."

33 for Elohim is not an Elohim of confusion, but of peace. As in all the assemblies of the saints,

[Min. Gregory Highsmith Sr.]

The answer plain and simple is, no.

[Eemah Martha aka Hephzybah]

Thank you Brothers. Now, please teach me:

"You either believe in One God or You are saying there are three Gods or You are saying Yeshua is not a diety as many make clear in HisSpace Forums."

So really ~ Which is correct?

A Muslim Sister explained our beliefs:

While Christianity may have a problem defining the essence of God, such is not the case in Islam.

"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God." (Qur'an 5:73) It is worth noting that the Arabic language Bible uses the name "Allah" as the name of God.

Suzanne Haneef, in her book WHAT EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW ABOUT ISLAM AND MUSLIMS (Library of Islam, 1985), puts the matter quite succinctly when she says, "But God is not like a pie or an apple which can be divided into three thirds which form one whole; if God is three persons or possesses
three parts, He is assuredly not the Single, Unique, Indivisible Being which God is and which Christianity professes to believe in." (pp. 183-184)

Looking at it from another angle, the Trinity designates God as being three separate entities - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If God is the Father and also the Son, He would then be the Father of Himself because He is His own Son. This is not exactly logical.

Christianity claims to be a monotheistic religion. Monotheism, however, has as its fundamental belief that God is One; the Christian doctrine of the Trinity - God being Three-in-One - is seen by Islam as a form of polytheism. Christians don't revere just One God, they revere three.



Now, according to the Qu'ran, Yeshua / Ieous had a virgin birth and is seated in heaven with Allah but they contend there is one El. He is not a deity.

As a Christian, is Jesus a deity? As a Hebrew is Yeshua a deity? If yes, how do you have one God :)

[Eemah Martha aka Hephzybah]

Thank you for this clarity. Yeshua/Yahshua is not a god nor deity. Got a clear position for Hebrew Israelite.

Next question... why are you baptized in His Name when baptisms took place before He actually began His ministry? Even my step dad who is Christian got re-baptized in the name of Jesus only to erase being baptized in all three.

Why do you think there is this recent trend when Matthew 28:19 says baptize in all three names? Why if only Abba is El? Why we use hebrew Elohim, which is plural? Sorry for all the whys :)

[Eemah Martha aka Hephzybah]

One resources says... Biblical scholars have found it useful to distinguish between "E" traditions and "J" traditions, the "Elohist" and the "Yahwist." Elohim is a plural masculine from the same root as singular El and Eloah. That seem to be the actual Hebrew language difference.... yet....

http://www.bambooweb.com/articles/E/l/Elohim.html

Yet is also says when speaking of or Yahweh, it is understood singular but of heathen gods its plural. This kind of make one think... meaning is being twisted for our own needs.

Yeshua not a deity is a concept that I have not come to accept yet I do not agree with the Trinity. The Name Jesus (Yeshua) moved mountains in my life. So in that, I understand that there is power in the Name much more than in man's. As for Ruwach HaKoDesh... wow .... what a comforter... what an annointing when in the Presence. So...I thank all for the topic. As you can see... well as you said to me on: http://mhinetwork.ning.com/

Some Wisdom must come from Yah... I will seek HIM for more clarity and wisdom on this. Thank you Moreh Y and Pastor Greg and Brother James :)

[Eemah Martha aka Hephzybah]

Blessings dear Moreh... I needed reflection time. Thank you for your dedication to teaching truths.