Questions for the Hebrew Israelite Brethren and Sisteren...

[newview]

Why are you guys of the Hebrew Israelite denomination so caught up in the flesh - OT, OT, OT. Have you guys ever been effected by that which is spiritual?

Do miracles ever happen amongst your congregants - like other wordly happenings - things that you can't explain and yet don't contradict the word of God?

Do you guys ever speak in tongues under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost? and if so Have they been interpretated and if so - what were a few of the messages?

Does the Lord ever give y'all visions? Daytime visions?

When there is sick among you - has your elders been called to anoint the sick with oil and pray for them and you see them miraculously healed?

Are there any-any-any white people in any of your congregations? or have there ever been any at one time but are now gone?

Do you guys believe in the resurrection of the dead?

Do you sing songs? If so - name at least 5.

Do you dance for joy in the Lord?

Are there any in your congregations who prophesy on things to come? - if so - please share a few.

When I read yall posts I often wonder if there is any joy and anything spiritual going on in your assemblies. It does not seem so, but there could be alot going on and you guys are just not sharing it with us.
And if your goal is to convert - you really need to step out and say something that the board can know or at least surmise that the God of Heaven steps out of Eternity and deals with your group(s).
I dont want it to seem that I am asking for a sign but I guess I am because the early church brought with their doctrine power and demonstration.

Otherwise - to me at least - it seems that what you brothers are sharing is stagnant.
And I say that out of love. I really enjoy scrapping with you guys over many of the subjects but when it gets down to business - outside of the OT - there is a dead pool effect going on.

Besides striving about the Law - share with the board how God deals with you guys mightily.

In Peace

[newview]

But James you dont even keep Torah.
You TAUGHT that it is OK to work yourself to the bone for your food on the Sabbath - just dont cook your food on the Sabbath.

And you never explained WHY this is the case.

[Zealot X]

Certainly a loaded question. First of all... the bible never pits grace against the law as you have done. Secondly, grace only does something for the person who needs it. It does not help those who the sinner sinned against. Grace allows the drunk driver to find forgiveness. It does not save the life of the child he ran over.


Shalom

[Rebekah]

Deuteronomy 6:24-25

24And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

25And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

2 Timothy 3:15-16

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

You know what Israel has not changed. Yes brother Watson, you are Israel, and you have not changed. The Pharassies in Jesus' time always tried to catch him and his disciples not keeping the law, and now the Pharassies try to tell you there is no law to keep. The full circle.

[Ahmad Allen]

I read,in another thread, that Israelite was a nationality.
What does that mean?
Does that mean like they are of that Nation
I'm confused because, shouldn't you say your an American, not an israelite

[Zealot X]

And let me ask this of all of you who believe in grace but not keeping the law.


By your logic, since the NT does not say "thou shalt not enslave another people" and since there is grace then white people should still be allowed to enslave us so long as they pray for forgiveness at some point.

Right?

What then is the need for REPENTANCE?

And if you have no responsibility to keep any commandments not restated by Yeshua isn't THAT legalism? Aren't you simply not repenting?

And its weird because when Yeshua talked about keeping laws you say he was only talking about keeping the OT laws until his death. So then what are his NT laws then and how did he specify which were for before his death and which were for after?


Shalom

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

ZealotX, Hezekiah, James, BruthaPharoah . . . .

Here lies the problem . . .By your logic, since the NT does not say "thou shalt not . . .

You are too hung up on "thou shalt not." This is legalistic. You thrieve on commands and demands and the punishment phase that follows. This type mentally does not reflect the love of God to me.

Remember, the nation of Israel been there, done that and still could'nt keep the Laws to save their lives.
Go figure!

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

As Bro. Watson said . . .and I concur:

There is a long list of the failures of Israel . . .The same thing is true right here on the BPN. There is nothing new under the sun.

Eccl 1:9
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

[James Pierce]

Chaplain,

The love of Yah is keeping His commandment. Torah is not all about "You shall not." There are scores of "You shall do." Chaplain, just continue meeting with the Messianics, and continue to study the Torah.

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

ZealotX and others of the Law,

Grace is not giving us what we so rightly deserve upon committing a sin. Instead, it ushers in God's mercy by allowing us the opportunity to confess our sins before God, ask for His forgiveness and repent (turn away) from that act of sin.

Because of the inherited sin nature, God's grace and mercy abounds because of what Jesus did on the Cross.

Remember, we wouldn't be dealing with sin had we not inherited from Adam and Eve. This is one of the reasons God has mercy upon us and gave us His grace because the inherited sin nature was not something we elected. Adam and Eve's Fall caused a multitude of people to be born into sin and shapen in iniquity.

Psalm 51:5 . . .Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

1 John 1:8. . .If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[Zealot X]

Chaplain Pat Harris,

The NT was never against the commandments of the OT. Where did you read anything from what I said in which you believe that I am hung up on the "thou shalt nots"? What I am trying to tell you is that these commandments teach the deeper principle of the law which is LOVE. Love is not a new law. It is the summation of what Torah was always all about.

1 John 3
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of G-d was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of G-d doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of G-d. 10 In this the children of G-d are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of G-d, neither he that loveth not his brother. 11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Do you understand the message here?

First of all, this addresses BOTH the Letter and the Spirit/Heart of the law. You cannot take a knife and cut one from the other. 1 John 3 tells us that LOVE was the message FROM THE BEGINNING. It never changed. What happened is that people's understanding of what love is got corrupted just like a lot of children are corrupted because of the things they have seen with their parents; violence against women, leaving your children, emotional abuse, lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, etc. etc.

Because people were doing all these things YHWH made a law telling them not to do those things. That law simply identified things that were sin... that were a failure of love. You cannot love me and justify stealing from me. So 1 John makes it clear that whoever commits sin is of the devil. That may sound harsh but do you believe what the bible says? If so then how do you get around it? It's not suggesting you don't need grace. This is the bogus argument that many try to make as if torah-keepers are against grace. That's ridiculous. Just as love was the message from the beginning there was also forgiveness from the beginning. And it is also written into the commandments:

Exodus 20
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I YHWH thy G-d am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Two things about this. Number one, I want you to notice the love vs the hate. If you hate G-d then he will visit your iniquity. In other words, the OPPOSITE of mercy. But if you love him and keep his commandments THEN he will show mercy! Just listen to YHWH speak. I didn't add anything to verse 6 to trick you into commandment keeping. This is your Creator telling you that he has mercy on those who love him AND KEEP his commandments. You can't love him and NOT keep his commandments just like you can't hate him AND KEEP his commandments. Either one are impossible.

So understand that YHWH has always had grace and mercy. These concepts weren't invented at the birth of Yeshua. And the mercy he had in Exodus never took the law away. In fact, it required the law to be kept. What does that mean? To KEEP the law? Does it mean never make a mistake? If it meant that then he wouldn't NEED to have mercy. So keeping the law CANNOT mean that you never mess up. In fact if you actually study the sacrificial system you will learn that there was a specific sacrifice for unintentional sin.

Look, if you have a child who is trying to be good and they mess up do you have to spank them or give them time out? No, you typically only reserve harsh punishment for when they're not even trying to be good. And the punishment is meant to wake them up and make them REMEMBER your rules. And your rules exist to help them grow up and mature into good adults. The SAME is true with the law of YHWH. It is to help you grow up in righteousness.

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

ZealotX,

Ok. We seem to be on the same page when it comes to understanding the definition of love, grace and mercy. However, here is where we part ways . . . .

While we can agree on the fact that if we are to walk upright as God would have us to do, it must begin with LOVE.

Love will unction us to walk/live in obedience to the scriptures without having to pay the harsh penalty of death for falling short. And let's face it, we will and do fall short.

Why?
Because of our inherited sin nature for which you do not acknowledge. So, again, we will fall short from time to time, and not necessarily with intention.

But let's revisit the teachings of Jesus on the Laws: Matthew 5:17-20

The NT Gospel is not contradictory to the OT Law; rather it is the ultimate fulfillment of the spiritual intentions of the law. Where the law had degenerated into legalism among the Pharisees, Jesus now takes the law beyond mere outward observance to the inner spiritual intention of God.

In the ultimate plan of God, the law was not to become an extra burden on the souls of men. Rather than pointing the way to salvation, the law convinced men of the need of a Savior. The Jews of Jesus' day considered the Pharisees the be the most religious in all Israel. However, their religion was largely an outward show of self-righteousness. In communicating the depth of his message, Jesus used a series of contrasts between the outward behavior demanded by the law and the inner attitude of the heart desired by God.

Here we discover the practical application of genuine Christian character to true spiritual living. Here we see the gospel in action:

Law
No murder
No adultery
No divorce
No oath-taking
No retaliation
Hatred for your enemy (tradition allowed it)

Spirit
No anger
No lust
Commitment
Speak the truth
Forgiveness
Love for your enemy (commanded)