Are pastors who allowed their wives to preach and teach over men in the congregation disobeying God?

[Preacher]

1Timothy 2

11 Let a woman in quietness learn in all subjection, 12 and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness, 13 for Adam was first formed, then Eve, 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, into transgression came, 15 and she shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they remain in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

1Timothy 3
5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?)

GB

[newview]

He wrote that but that was not for modern American women - that was holy women back in the bible days

[Preacher]

The word of God is for all times peoples and places ages...Its more for us today...because the women of Old are dead...
GB

[Preacher]

I'm not saying it...God said it God clearly states that a woman was not called to teach preach or have authority over men in the congregation...ever...and God gives the reason which also is very clear...but these women who disobey are doing so through their own rebellious hearts and lack of understanding...obedience to the whole word of God is the sign that one has been born again...disobedience is a sign that one most likely have not been born again...

There were no female disciples...there were no female high priest's...women can preach God's word outside of the congregation when God used the churches....but never to be overseer or pastor of a church...God gave his reason for this..Eve being deceived was in the sin...

1 Corinthians 11:8 For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man;

1Timothy 2 11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be savedb through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

GB

[Preacher]

I hear a lot of women say that concerning Mary...but we have to understand that Jesus didn't tell Mary to go and become a pastor of a church or overseer...he told her to go tell the disciples...we have to be careful what we take and run with concerning scripture...If first Timothy would have come before that...then they might have a point...women have been given a great oppertunity that a man could never have been given..the bible says they will be saved in child baring..this points to the fact that Christ came from a woman in birth...

This same type of spirit in these women that are preaching anyway and pastoring over men anyway is the same spirit thats causing so many broken homes, where women don't want to obey and submit...they want to lead and control...this is out of their character that God created them for...man was not created for women...women were created for man...that will never change...

Women have a place in the body of Christ..it just wasn't to preach and be in authority over the men...no more than Eve was put in charge of the garden...
GB

[HOPE - Psalm 43:5]

I agree with what you said about Mary. The fact that Jesus appeared to the woman does not mean he commissioned her to go out and start a church all willy nilly. But He did in fact tell her to go tell His disciples.

I do have a question about what you said about Eve and the Garden. In chapter 1 we see "them"/Adam and Eve being given dominion, in chapter two we see "him"/only Adam operating with dominion and then the creation of Eve.

So which was given dominion? Adam, Eve or both without concern of who was created first?

Genesis 1:27-29

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

This is what is in chapter 1. But we tend to over look it and go to what seems to conflict chapter 1.....

Genesis 2:7-9 & 16-23

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.


There is no disputing the fact that Eve was deceived. A blind person could see that. Likewise there is no dispute that Adam was there with her when she was deceived and he too did eat of the fruit from the forbidden tree.

There is no disputing the fact that the man is head over woman as designed by God. Too many scriptures describe it as so.

There is no disputing that the family structure is jacked up by the paradigm of the independent woman coupled with the emotionally emasculated man. (It's a classic pattern of Jezebel and Ahab...one cannot exist without the other. YOu shouldn't call a woman a jezebel without calling the man she is with an Ahab...the two operate together and feed off each other)

There is no disputing that the Ephesians 5 marriage is almost non-existent today.

But, while I don't dispute the Eve not having dominion in the garden comment, I do ask you to comment on the seeming (but not necessarily absolute) difference in the giving of dominance in chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis.

[Preacher]

You hit on a good point...he told mary to go tell the disciples....they were already saved...so he in fact was not telling her to preach to the unsaved...
GB

[Preacher]

Ok first... Eve only had dominion through Adam..because she came from Adam and was in fact created for Adam..Adam was created for God...Eve was created for Adam...

notice also, whenever God addresses us in general the word man is used, never woman..example Jesus said if I be lifted up I will daraw all MEN unto me..now this statement does not exclude women in any way, women are saved and used by God also..but man having authority in the earth over the woman...is the reason God addressed the men...another example...God says I would that all men lift up holy hands in prayer...does this exclude women praising God or praying ? of course not...but what has happend is Satan..the same Satan that deceived Eve the first time has deceived women again with the feminist movement...can you see the devil in the garden again?...he gave them a word male chauvinistan
Attitude of superiority or dominance by men over women, The term was first used in the United States in the 1960s by the feminist movement.
yet when we look at the creation of man we see that God created man to be dominant..so in order for the fiminist to make sense of their claim ,they would have to exclude God althogether...Satan at work again...


1 Corinthians 11:9
neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

1 Corinthians 11
7A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

concerning the Jezabel statement...you said the emotionally emasculated man...
answer
Scripture contains approximately 170 references to God as the “Father.” By necessity, one cannot be a father unless one is male. If God had chosen to be revealed to man in a female form, then the word “mother” would have occurred in these places, not “father.” In the Old and New Testaments, masculine pronouns are used over and over again in reference to God.

Jesus Christ referred to God as the Father several times and in other cases used masculine pronouns in reference to God. In the Gospels alone, Christ uses the term “Father” in direct reference to God nearly 160 times. Of particular interest is Christ’s statement in John 10:30: “I and the Father are one.” Obviously, Jesus Christ came in the form of a human man to die on the cross as payment for the sins of the world. Like God the Father, Jesus was revealed to humanity in a male form. Scripture records numerous other instances where Christ utilized masculine nouns and pronouns in reference to God.

men were created masclin as God is refered as being masculin..I would suggest men,as with Ahab have no choice..this is why homosexuallity is so offensive to God....we are created in His masculin image...( characteristics ) to turn it into something other than pure masculinity is an abomination to the creator...
GB

[HOPE - Psalm 43:5]

Preacher you said:
Ok first... Eve only had dominion through Adam..because she came from Adam and was in fact created for Adam..Adam was created for God...Eve was created for Adam...

I have no argument there. You see, my comment was to your direct statement as follows:

Women have a place in the body of Christ..it just wasn't to preach and be in authority over the men...no more than Eve was put in charge of the garden...

One could read your statement and believe that Eve had no dominion at all through Adam or not. I just wanted clarification because the scriptures don't reveal that. So thank you for saying she had a lil shummin shummin thru Adam.... because she indeed did.

And being made FOR Adam is an honor. A lot of women don't see it that way. They see it as being "controlled by man" but if that were the case then we would need to also think that man is totally controlled by God since, as you shared via scripture text, man was made for God. But man isn't "controlled" by God at all. Man(kind) has a free will to be submissive ... or not. And of course thereby reaping the curse or benefits of their actions.

With that said....I must also say

Slow your role my brotha.. how did we get here? I'm not a feminist and do not support the movement in its entirety at all.

Don't go left on me here LOL

Dear heart, not once did I even remotely question man's masculinity in general. My comment was specific to the man who had been emasculated by a controlling female. Let me quote myself:

There is no disputing that the family structure is jacked up by the paradigm of the independent woman coupled with the emotionally emasculated man. (It's a classic pattern of Jezebel and Ahab...one cannot exist without the other. YOu shouldn't call a woman a jezebel without calling the man she is with an Ahab...the two operate together and feed off each other)



My point was that when a woman is accused of being controlling (or as many say a Jezebel), that woman can ONLY fully operate in such a role IF there is a man with an Ahab mentality. It's a conditional mindset. The conditions have to be right for such a woman to operate in such a way. She can't be controlling with a man who is strong in character, intellect and spirit. He won't allow her to control him like that.

So you are defending something that I didn't attack. I apologize if it seemed as if I was but I wasn't. I'll have to be a bit more clear in my statements. LOL (sheesh)

[Preacher]

And being made FOR Adam is an honor. A lot of women don't see it that way. They see it as being "controlled by man" but if that were the case then we would need to also think that man is totally controlled by God since, as you shared via scripture text, man was made for God. But man isn't "controlled" by God at all. Man(kind) has a free will to be submissive ... or not. And of course thereby reaping the curse or benefits of their actions.


OK now we've come to another problem I agree that women should see it as an honor to be created for the man you're wise in that statement..now lets deal with the statement that God doesn't control man..and man has a free will to be submissive to God....

that statement is totally contrary to God's word

Ezekiel 36
22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.

24“‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

when a person is born again they recieve the hly spirit that causes them to walk in the ways of God...we do not have a free will...to have a free will is to not suffer and Consequenses...

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Acts 17:28
28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'


As a child of God sin repulses us...we have been given a new spirit that desires to do God's will...our freedom is in the fact that we have been set free to do God's will...as before we were enslaved to Satan to do his will...

GB..

[HOPE - Psalm 43:5]

Preacher,

Show me a man who even after salvation doesn't sin in some area (thought, word or deed)

When you show me that man, you will then show me a man who is COMPLETELY controlled by God 24/7...365.

Yes we have a new spirit but our MINDS need renewing. (Romans 12:2; Ephesians 4:23)

I mean just look at the passages you quoted my dear:

Ezekiel 36
22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.

Israel profaned God's name... ISRAEL.. the chosen nation. All throughout scriptures you see chosen men of God sinning. How is this proof that mankind loses free will once they are saved and spirit-filled?


Ok let's keep looking at the scriptures you posted...

Ezekiel 36:24-28
24“‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

Did Israel, after receiving God's Spirit and being moved to follow His decrees EVER sin after this moment and declaration in Ezekiel? If they did... then why did they if they were under utter and complete control of God's Spirit? Wouldn’t His Spirit have stopped them from being disobedient in any way (thought, word, deed)?


Your quote in I Corinthians 6:19-20 only shows that we were bought with the high price of Christ's death and his blood. So, just as a slave is bought the slave STILL, even though a slave and not free, the slave STILL has the choice to obey his master or not. The result, however he chooses, will either be destruction or discipline for disobedience or salvation and sanctuary for obedience.

Cross reference what you've posted with Rom 6:12 and Rom 6:;16


Romans 6:12
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

The instruction to "let not" also shows that one can "let" or "allow" it to reign in their mortal bodies... we can let or let not…


Romans 6:16
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? This shows a CHOICE of submission or not submitting.

And of course Deut chapter 30 and many many other passages where we see conditional promises… where God says, IF you do this THEN I will do this…. all of which positions mankind to … choose.

CHOOSE whom you will serve
CHOOSE life

The theme recurs throughout the bible. So, why present an opportunity to choose if He chose to exercise complete control over mankind?

And finally, always keeping scriptures in context....in Acts chapter 17, we see Paul's great discourse or teaching on Mars Hill..

17:22Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

23For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;


And in this discourse is included...verse 28

17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being;

That’s a great scripture to quote Preacher but please continue on to the rest of the passage….

Here’s the second half of Act 17:28
as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Part b of the scripture is talking about Zeus. In verse 28 Paul is comparing worship to the true and living God to the Athenian worship of Zeus. Paul is coming against religion and idolatry amongst the Athenians…

Paul was talking to the Athenians and referenced a Greek poet named Aratus and quotes from his book titled Phaenomena of Aratus. He did this to show an authority that even the Athenians would respect as he was proving a point about SUBMITTING oneself to the authority of God the Father. The ONE TRUE and LIVING God.

Here's the excerpt from the book:

Let us begin with Zeus, whom we mortals never leave unspoken.

For every street, every market-place is full of Zeus.

Even the sea and the harbour are full of this deity.

Everywhere everyone is indebted to Zeus. (this is a key phrase to remember – indebtedness!!)

For we are indeed his offspring... (Phaenomena 1-5).


Paul was using this strategy to show that the Athenians religion was simple... idolatry. But he wisely only quoted the part about sonship…. not the part about being… indebted to Zeus.

He wanted the Athenians to see that they were NOT children of a lesser god. But they could be children…offspring of THE true and living God. Paul was making the “unknown god” known to the Athenians

And the subsequent verses support it all the more.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

33So Paul departed from among them.

34Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

While others mocked Paul… verse 34 shows that some… listened and even more importantly… believed. The man Dionysius and the woman Damaris; they made a choice. It’s a beautiful story indeed.

Ok my post is wayyy too long. Sorry.

[Preacher]

There is no disputing that the family structure is jacked up by the paradigm of the independent woman coupled with the emotionally emasculated man. (It's a classic pattern of Jezebel and Ahab...one cannot exist without the other. YOu shouldn't call a woman a jezebel without calling the man she is with an Ahab...the two operate together and feed off each other)


Ok I hear you now..Yes this is definitely a spirit of Jezebel..but I was referring to the comment about Ahab...but I do hear what you're saying...the women of the feminist movement has definitely tried to switch roles...and begin to wear the pants so to speak...and I have to say...it’s partly the weak men who allow this...
GB

[HOPE - Psalm 43:5]

it's fiddy... fiddy 50/50. She couldn't do it without him.

A strong man would shut her down IMMEDIATELY!

Or he would be such an opponent that she would eventually back down.

I've seen it done countless times. And by strong man, I don't mean a man that would get physical.. I mean strength of both character and presence.

A woman knows when she is in the presence of a man who understand that he has authority and a man who is unsure of who he is.

I've seen women tear a brotha down with words to the point that he acts like a little child around her. I see it a LOT (but not 100%) with men who were raised solely by women.. just surrounded by women. Or men who were raised where mama ran the house and daddy was quiet as a mouse.
That boy/man will find women to be the authority figure and not the man...

And likewise a girl growing up in that environment will learn and develop traits to manipulate and control and dominate men. She most often (but not 100%) dislike the "S" word... submission because to her it will mean she is not the one in control.

Both that kind of man and that kind of woman is living with a paradigm rooted in fear. (fear of rejection, fear of being alone; they'll be controlling or people pleasers)

anywho.. I've said enough

(man I can go on and on can't I? LOL)