I think it is very important that preachers of today need to be seminary trained .

[Delbert Vaughn]

i say that because there are no more dumb folk in the church and i feel that it is a sad day for the preacher if he has somebody in the congregation that knows more about the bible than the preacher. Also i feel that if the pulpit is dumb then the pews are dumb.

[Bishop S. JaNine Hyman, Ph.D.]

GREAT DAY R.D. McDonald....you have said a mouthful in a few words! This is a great observation, and it is, to say the least, quite well stated! The ideal is that one has both training (discipline and teachers), PLUS the anointing (which is tangible and transferrable). For both, we need to be submitted and subject to those who know more than us, are appointed over us, and are greater than us. This is the only true way to be submitted to God. Folks who can not submit to earthly teachers cannot submit to God--this is a divine principle that MANY preachers themselves do not follow.

Indeed Sir, there is no substitute for being educated, anointed, and authorized by the Spirit of God and by authorize anointed men and women--for what is done if heaven must likewise be done in the earth.

You done said it ALL Sir--lol

thanks
+++sjh

[Bishop S. JaNine Hyman, Ph.D.]

Brother Perry, with all due respect toyou sir in your position or office of ministry--many seminaries in America are not duly accredited because of they either cannot afford or are not willing to adhere to the strict standards they must meet in order to recieve accreditation or recognition (as you say) by the Board of Education.

I am trying to follow your logic, but I do not see what seminary has to do with "putting God in a box"--Is not the refusal to be formerly trained also "putting God in a box"? Such a term seems to be an oxymoron. Indeed if the creature had the ability and power to put the Creator in box, then the Creator would cease to be God. Could it be that what we really should be pickup on here is WE need to think OUTSIDE the box on this issue? The Box is not necessarily education--but the lack of it certainly could be.

Further, is it that God qualifies whom He calls, or is it the responsibility of the called ones to study to show themselves approved UNTO GOD-- and to walk worthy of the vocation wherewith they have been called? Indeed Sir, there is no biblical principle to justify the concept that God qualifies a person eliminating the person's need to train and prepare. If this is the case, let God Himself qualify doctors, teachers, lawyers, those other people in authority (those powers that be are ordained by God also--but the people must prepare themselves for service).

An encounter with God does not preclude proper training. Neither a seminary, preacher, or prophet has all the answers to every question that needs to be answered. I'm not sure what the argument here is, but I do not think that this is not the crux of this discussion. You make good point about a major company having to continually have great and trained minds for the purpose of customer service, and it is a disservice to God's people, and to the God who called us not to have even GREATER in the house of God. You are also right--the spirit of God operates differently than people do (although it operates THROUGH people)....but we are not ministering to the Spirit of God when we teach and preach--we are giving PEOPLE a service--it ought to be EXCELLENT service because God's people, and God Himself deserve the very best.

I'm also not too sure what chronos and kiros have to do with being properly trained either...I'll read it again for clarity--so since I'm ignorant to this, I dare not comment. I will agree with you on this however, the Spirit of God is the greatest teacher. I'd like to add, however, it is this same spirit which breathes or inspires great teachers and prophets to reveal God to us--the average person's mind is not submitted enough to God to be taught by the Holy Ghost alone. This is why God employs five-fold ministers in and out of the church...this is why he uses parents, teachers, experts mentors, texts, history etc...his spirit occupies these mediums and they in turn speak to us. I cannot agree that the anointing is greater than knowledge--as God Himself is omniscient (all KNOWING)....but you never hear where God is anointed. Thus, possesing the character and nature of God is greater than possessing the OIL of God only. Having them BOTH is indeed the ideal situation.

This debate is probably as still as ongoing as it has been over thousands of years....I doubt that it will be solved in this forum. But we certainly can see where the minds of most preachers are these days, and it's always good to know how other people think, and it is good to challenge our own thinking by these thoughts. Thanks for sharing Sir. The bottom line is, NONE of us know what we think we know or AS MUCH as we think we know.

+++sjh

[Steven Perry]

the question is not the training. But, who determines what is considered proper training. I am big into training but, you can put God into a box and miss it. Every denomination and every church has a different standard as it relates to training. They indoctrinate people with training. If seminary training was so important then many of the people that were at the azusa street revival was not qualified to be apart of it. The seminaries are excellent. but, the logic of coming out the box is completely different. Colleges are set up to establish a standard but also it creates a process of indoctrination that may or may not be correct. I agree with a person that studies hard. But, to say that every preacher needs seminary I disagree with that. Some may want to go to a Bible Training Center while other may only need training. Mr. Mc Donald I agree with your statement but, what I don;t agree with is who are we to say what is considered a standard in God. We live in a country where religion is a freedom to have. Now there are some preachers that are hurting because of a degree. But, you cannot condemn them because of it. the holy spirit is still a greater teacher than all of us and we speak as the holy spirit not only gives of an unknown tongue but, also in the known tongue. before seminary a person should have a strong relationship with God. We have forgotten what the principle things are in the bible. What are the first steps. The first step to building a relationship with God is not seminary. It is being saved then in most mainstream pentecostal denominations then it is the receiving of the Holy Spirit. We once again cannot teach what God does not release. In Ephesians 1:17-19, Paul had prayed that God will give him revelation or what we call today revelation knowledge. In revelation is first key to enlightened the text. Now I do agree that seminary would give you better knowledge which will increase your own personal understanding of revelation. But, the principle thing is to receive revelation.

[James Pierce]

Ach Moreh,

I agree. Its about obeying his word. No matter if you have a degree from seminary, or is self taught. Be doers of the word, and not just hearers!

[Bishop S. JaNine Hyman, Ph.D.]

I too agree Bro. Pierce that obedience is the key. As I said in an earlier post, if we would ALL obey the voice of God, especially concerning our preparation to lead God's people, we'd all be better off--both preacher and people.


The idea of being self-taught, however, is non-biblical. As others have said, the issue is not just being trained in a SEMINARY, but in some type of formal training. The reason so many have not been seminary trained is because they have not made the decision to earn their first degree (though some seminaries will admit a few students conditionally who have ample experience and some college). There should be some form of training and schooling--but either way. People should have heard the voice of God as clearly concerning their the ministerial preparation as they did their "call". Our obedience may even require that our training be ongoing (since few of us ever gain perfection at leading people at all times).

Let's just obey the Spirit of God daily---that should keep us pretty much on target in our personal and professional lives.

[Steven Perry]

man of God I agree with you concerning the out of the box thing. But, as it relates to the logic of it. It makes no since because the bible says that all scripture are inspired by God. The new testament would have never been written had we the writers been in the box and been confound to the Torah or the Old Testament. But, because they were open to God and to the Holy Spirit it increased levels of revelation. Seminary is fantastic but, it is not the basic and principle thing.

[Bishop S. JaNine Hyman, Ph.D.]

Ach Moreh, your question makes sense. Those of us who are seminary trained are able to pass the training on to our people....I disciple my own leaders,--this is true. But they need to hear somebody else who is qualified to teach them besides ME (that includes those anointed prophets who are expert at what they do, who have the Word of the Lord in their mouths, AND who have training and expertise in their craft.). What kind of students and leaders would we be if all we had all the way through school was ONE teacher....we could learn the material, be mentored, and be managed (supervised), but we would not be too well rounded. You presume correctly--it is my job to train and indoctrinate my people--but they have a profound responsibility to invest in their OWN self-development.

When my leaders get to a certain point in their walk with me and God, they need to pursue more systemmatic training. Do you know how many preachers cannot read and comprehend well? You'd be surprised---or maybe not--lol. We do not have time, nor is it most of our callings to teach people the SKILLS that a school systemattically teaches. For instance, is it my job to teach greek and hebrew, church administration and finance, pastoral care and counseling? To a small degree yes--but I would KILL myself doing that for even small group of people while dealing with the day to day run of the church, and feeding the flock. Seminary teaches this stuff.

Seminary is not just about being taught doctrine--in FACT the difference between most accredited seminaries vs. bible schools or bible colleges is that seminaries teach varied theologies, and rarely indoctrinate--the bible schools normally indoctrinate. Both give practical training. We are not to be a substitute for school.

Also Sir, perhaps no one has answered you because about "resurrection" on the shabbat (sabbath) because that's not the issue at least in this forum. The other reason may be because your comments can often be perceivedas insulting and arrogant, and you have already judged most of us as ignorant, and yourself as being superior in your knowledge. What would be the purpose of getting into a dilaogue or diatribe with you? It would seem to be futile attempt on our part--after all, none of us--trained or untrained--have the knowledge to even address your questions. Folks have to learn how to take us before they take us on (if they are wise).

But what the heck Sir, I'll HUMOR you and address one of these questions. Anyone who can THINK for themselves, or who are Spirit led certainly should question MOST of what we have been taught about "Christianity" --especially since our teaching of it comes from our oppressors. That should make any thing we have been taught suspect, in my opinion. One doesn't need a degree to know that the "resurrection" did NOT take place on Sunday....it is too inconsistent with Judaism, it's culture and traditions. Plus, there are too many inconsistencies in the so-called canonized texts to conclude an "early Sunday morning, He got up" message. It would be hard to prove ANY thing about Jesus or Yeshua since there are no historical or anthroplogical facts...except what is said to be text....we believe by faith these stories. Yet within the historical data that IS available to us, none support a Sunday resurrection. Plain--simple--at least to me it is. Next?

+++sjh

[Steven Perry]

very good response. you are the first pastor i heard say that your members can learn somewhere else besides you...

[sherry]

ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN FOR THE PREFECTION OF THE SAINT...

[Bishop S. JaNine Hyman, Ph.D.]

Ach Moreh: You probably suffer no more attack than I do from my OWN folks because I cannot perpetuate the many lies that have been told us. It is said that Christianity is not a religion, but it is precisely that; and ANY one who questions the tenets of the religion --by using the good sense God gave them, or revelation is spurned as arrogant, heretical, and in error.

I do contend that there is discrepancy in the synoptics regarding the resurrection event--but I clearly said that the preaching that gets the folks yelling an scream about "EARLY Sunday morning--he Got up" is inconsistent with Jewish contexts and culture (Hebraic would be more accurate since "jew" is a term that came about as of late and is of an "uncertain origin").

A point of clarification: I did not reference my own faith--my point was that most ofthe stories of Yeshua recorded in the so-called NT (very much the creation of the Roman Catholic Church) cannot be proven....thus, ANY thing we believe about them by necessity is by faith. It is my belief Sir that faith must supercede reasoning --yet I must agree with you, western Christianity, in particular, perpetuates the abadoning of reasoning, logic and critical and creative thinking in the name of "blind-faith". thank you for stimulating dialogue.

[Bishop S. JaNine Hyman, Ph.D.]

Shalom---check out these few links....eat the meat and spit out the bones when you do. You Sir, should enjoy the critical thinking in these aritcles, if nothing else. Let me know what you think.

http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/3did92.html

http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=articles&id=125

http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/1tarry92.html

[sherry]

AMEN, WE NEED TO WATCH AND NOW WHAT WE ARE GIVING GOD PEOPLE ,GOD PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE THE BEST. KNOWLEDGE IS STILL POWER EVEN IN THE BOBY OF CHRIST....