All right, let me be straight foward here. No one has an affinity for preaching particualry sermonic celebration then me! Well save maybe Rev. Dr. M.J. Simmons who is currently writting the much anticipated anthology on Black preaching. She is the quenn of Black preaching! With that being said I need to post a serious series of questions:

1.) How can one know when there sermon was effective? I mean really ought we assess our sermonic success via congregational interaction? Is it likeley that people can even really concentrate and commit to memory our life shaping discourse while screaming back "Amen" and "Say it" to us while simultaneously tapping, slapping and touching their neighbor? Moreover, all of us I dare say it have at some point either played church, watched kids play church, or have playfully chit-chatted about church enough to know that we can all feign, fake or play shout. What's to say that congregants don't do the same? Perhaps many are just conditioned to respond to certain organ chords, certain tonal inflections, and perhaps much of the pandemonium praise we elicit through sermon is crowd influenced mob behavior? In short, I am asking my brothers and sisters for a viable means for assessing the sermonic task, by viable I mean a tangible observable means, while I do beleive after doing the deed it ought to "be well with one's soul" in this petition however, I am calling for more than that.

2.)Speaking of celebration and it's effectiveness at eliciting emotive response from a congregation, I feel the need to pose this question: when is enough.....well enough? Do you beleive it is possible to over do it?

3.)Is it a sermon if I do not go to Golgotha and close at the cross? What If I am preaching from the Hebrew Scriptures? Or preaching in the Advent season, must I always hasten to the cross? I admit, I love hearing the passion narrative and I am planning on having 1 Cor. 2:2 inked indeliably on my body, so no one is more cross crazy than yours truly, however, I feel the need to raise this relevant question, is a sermon salvific if it has no mention of the cross. Let me give a bit more insight as to why this issue is a concern for me. In Christ I beleive God reconciled the world to God's self. No doubt, however the atonemnet theory (Jesus' death for our sins) is but one of the many ways of talking about Jesus' redemptive tenure here on earth. Might we as preachers find other salvific means of expressing God's love for us by preaching the full gospel. By full gospel I mean the multitude of ways in which God saves us! I am not dismissing the cross, not even, but what I am doing is pushing for us as preachers to take God and God's gospel out of the box we've cognitively configured to put Him in. I am hoping that we can open our eyes, ears, minds and spirits to the Holy Spirit that He may direct us into a fuller understanding of the significance of Christ's life. I beleive that there is much salvation in the birth, life, death, and Ressurection of Jesus! I am disheartened that we often Jesus' significance to one defining moment in time.

Your comments, questions, considerations are wanted, welcomed, and warrented

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You ask some very interesting questions.... How do we know when the sermon is effective? When is it enough? Can we go too far? Do we always have to go to the cross? My answer to those questions; I will attempt to answer in this statement. God has called preachers with various gifts and talents; and just as God has ordained a minister before the foundation of the world, God has also ordained a people to be fed by that particular preacher. The effectiveness of a sermon can not necessarily be discerned by the reaction of the congregation in the sanctuary. The effectiveness shows up in the changed lives of people, and people being set free. A preacher that plays to the crowd, who didn't study and prepare the meal with research and prayer, runs the risk of going overboard trying to illicit a response. The meal having been prepared as a result of study, meditation, prayer; with the Holy Spirit seasoning it as it's being delivered...... Now rest between God and the hearers, too much concern about audience response is more about the preacher's ego; as opposed to God's Word being delivered and God's people being set free. Finally preaching the full council of God doesn't always have to result in a visit to Golgotha. The most effective sermon ever preached in the bible was Jonah's sermon; I don't believe anyone else has been recorded as having 100% repentance but Jonah, Jonah didn't go to the cross. The full council of God, encompasses too much to be attained in one sermon or teaching; nor can it be achieved by visiting Golgotha, the empty tomb, nor ascension. I conclude my statement by saying if a pericope, has been challenged with proper exegetical examination................. the story line and the hidden messages it contains can be very liberating.................. I think salvation, edification and liberaton can be achieved, if we put the time and effort into the preparation of the meal, season it with prayer, serve it and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. When we have done that, we can eat, go home and sleep. Then start studying, praying and meditating on the next meal.

Sincerely,
Rev. Wendell Leon Jackson, M.Div.
404-664-4987 revwljackson2756@yahoo.com
Oh my Young Man--You have asked so many questions--because you have many. That, my brother is quite a GOOD thing. It is the only way that we will get the kinds of prophetic insights that supercede what believe about the sacred texts. I'll just answer 3 of your questions, or else I will be here all night just typing away. I hope you don't mind if I pick my 3 questions.

1)How can one know when the sermon was effective? We know a sermon (well I don't do sermons much any more--I teach and give prophetic proclamtion)--but a "sermon" is effective when we see transformation in the way people think, express those thoughts through worship, daily discipline, and relationships. The effects are both immediate and long-term in most cases. By immediate, I mean a word changes the atmosphere in the room, and it becomes conducive for a notable move of God. We know, finally, a word has been effective when people REPENT and embrace the authority, order, and culture of the Kingdom of God.

Reaction from the crowd often feeds the ego of a preacher --the more teh folks scream, the more we scream--the more hyped they get, the more we drive them. It is often purely out of narcissism --a desire to be the center of the people's attention and affection that we often seek to "please the crowd", while we are yet misrepresenting the God who called us. My "rule of thumb" is that if I have pleased the crowd, I have displeased the Lord--it is VERY difficult to please both!

Our job is to present the One true and living God in a way that the people are either offended by Him or embrace Him. A sensitive preacher will know when the people have a true spirit of worship or brokenness, and will hear the Holy Spirit on how he or she might proceed, so as not to quench the Spirit's intention and power. Secular singers get the same kinds of reactions in their concerts from the people that we do --so crowd psychology, better known as "hype" does not mean anything relative to the Kingdom of God. In fact, God is hardly impressed with it, and He certainly is far less impressed with us than we are with ourselves.

2) Question for YOU--by "celebration" (I know this is seminary talk), do you mean the "whoop"? I will answer from that perspective, though you may mean something a little different. I am a pentecostal, and we indeed are known for our whoop and celebration. It used to be a time that the whoop--which is cultural for us--would be the climatic culmination and conclusion of the whole matter (fear God and keep His commandments, because He WILL keep His word), We were taught to celebrate the word, even if it was a word of correction, reprove, or rebuke because indeed, we are priveleged that God would speak to us. It is the celebration that drew us without invitation, to the altar, or caused us to break forth in a shout and dancing. This is what kept us, and what helped us hide that word in our hearts. However, it has become a tactic to boost a preacher's popularity. In fact, the more the certain mainstream denominational preachers learned how to whoop, the larger their congregations began to blow up (especially if they had pentecostal musicians backing them up). Now, we're driving the crowds mad with the celebration, but they are not being delivered. It's so bad, that with my pentecostal self, I hardly do all of that anymore (until it just comes on me like that :). People must be taught, and they MUST be given prophetic wisdom and revelation that comes from the Heart and Mind of God. Sermonizing, in my opinion, is not necessary to present God to our people. In fact, it is a great way to teach a lesson, but it seems to be the least effective way of conveying and communicating the very Mind and Intention of God. I suppose I am already at "enough is enough". If God doesn't lead me to do all that, I just don't do it. I do as Jesus did--preach the prophetic--close the book and sit down. There are times, God would allow us to praise Him within our own cultural confines --this is permissable--but we should know when we have tapped into a realm of flesh that only stimulates the flesh of our listeners--who will in turn, by their spastic reactions, stimulate our flesh. Before you know it, flesh has ruled and the spirit of God and the anointing have lifted.

3) is a sermon salvific if it has no mention of the cross? Belief in an event has never saved any body. This idea is one of the greatest heresies of the western church. A message need not mention the cross in order to be salvivic. Any word that both convicts and convinces one of sin is salvivic. Any word that reveals the condition of the heart, the thoughts and intentions of it and calls for repentance and righteousness is salvivic. Salvation does not begin nor end at the cross. The whole significance of the cross is not the event itself. It details for us the integrity of a man who suffered injustice for the sake of the deliverance of his people....it is about the price of total obedience ("Jesus became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross", and "he BECAME obedient through the things he suffered). The cross embraces the principle of absolute love for God, absolute faith and communion with Him, and absolute trust in Him when things kind of go south. The cross is about having such a conviction about one's divine call and cause that one is willing to die for it--for the greater good of those whom we have come to serve. It really is the culmination of our own ambitions, desires, and all that is fleshly being put to death. Now that's REAL salvation.

The cross really is not about being saved--it's about being selfless. The narrative as we believe it, is quite tainted by europeanism. If one's words are sher utterance of God, or are authorized by God, they will cut to the core of a person's being, just as Jesus' words did. In fact, EVERY word God speaks is redemptive and is therefore salvivic. Be the Voice of God Preacher, see how much GOD Himself talks about the cross. We all just might be surprised. (:

Thanks for your inquiry into the deeper things of preaching, and for putting this out there for discussion. Keep asking those questions while you are yet young...you will certainly obtain answers before you get too old to preach'em (LOL).
Thanks again,

Bishop S. JaNine Hyman, M.Div., M.S., Th.D.
I'd like to respond as a novice or should I say a person that didn't go to any Theologian school and learn how to preach if that's what goes on in those schools with curriculum and things. So I'm coming from the layman's point of view if you don't mind. We do know that in some instances it was taken from the layman.

Sometimes I do feel that preachers have this ego of who can preach better than the other or give the better sermon as you say. Who can fill up the pughs. Mostly I see a lot of ministers trying to be on TV to get rich or fill up the pughs to get rich. I'm not saying all because it's never all. But I'm not in to who performs the best and never will be.

As a layman I'm only interested in learning God's Word and what I mean by that is when I go to church I want to read from the bible and then go over the bible with God providing us His wisdom, knowledge and understanding and not what man thinks God means. I don't want a story line that last for a couple of hours that has nothing to do with God's Word. I don't want to read the bible like I would a novel from some author like a John Grishom (probably wrong spelling) or anyone.

Now we can talk about Jesus being on the cross, in the tomb and ressurrected because that's all true. But Jesus is no longer on the cross, in the tomb but He is on sitting on the right hand of God waiting to return. Wearing a cross, having angel figurines has no significance but we do it. It's not what we do that saves us we were saved when God so graciously and mercifully gave His only begotten Son for our sins. He washed our sins away with the shedding of His blood. You can't save me as a preacher! God already did that and all we have to do is believe in Him and accept Him as our Lord and Saviour. It is by the grace of God we are saved not by some man's great sermon and speech technique.

Personally I've gotten more from the bible just by asking God to bless me with His wisdom, knowledge and understanding than I ever did in the church with who performs the best. I believe its because of my sincerity and belief and God knows I'm not playing with it. I was too deep in the gutter to play with it.

Me as a layperson that had no formal schooling to study the bible or preach it or present it in a way that makes people jump up and down and say what a sermon, I just want to know God and His Son. I want to truly know and understand His Word. I go to church for edification and fellowship. If I go to church and all of us have different bibles I feel that is only satan's intervention because if you don't think he is the author of some of these bibles then Theologian schools to me have taught you nothing. We can't improve on God's language He used. We as pottery can't improve upon the Potter. We as pottery can't figure out the Potter. He has to reveal Himself to us and He doesn't to everyone even if you went to a school that gave you a curriculum to learn from. All ministers aren't ordained by God and I don't believe that for one moment. Some are ordained by the great deceiver himself. Satan is in our churches and knows the bible better than any minister that walks this earth. We can't fight God's battles unless He is leading us and we have on the full armour.

Well this layman is done and I know some of you school taught will hang me out to dry and I don't care. I just know from where I came and from where He has brought me and is taking me. May God bless us all.
John,
Be encouraged my BROTHER. That doesn't come from propoer Exegesis, that comes from the Lord revealing who he is.
I pray that you are heard and understood, but truly you are bacoming more wise with each day.
God bless you my brother.
Thank you Brother Adrian but the glory is God's. May God continue to bless you.
Ooooh I hit a nerve did I? This is good because if you notice and reread my post I don't put down as you say. If you think that everyone that goes to Theologian Schools are ordained by God or that they are true to God then you need to open your eyes my Brother. And for you to say for me not to be here because it's for Preachers shows me you took it personally what I said. You have a strong use for what you believe to be intelligent sentencing with your words and I'm sure you're impressed. If you think the Lord didn't author the King James Version then I do know you. Here you're looking for best translation available! Wow! I don't need to go to a book store or library to understand what blessing God has given me or you. All I had to do was let Him provide me with His understanding and read it in the Bible. And please my Brother you can never offend me with your words or your perceived wisdom. It's alright with me if we agree to disagree because it doesn't make me dislike you period. We are individuals and I will believe what God has given me to believe and you will do the same. It's just good to get the different perspectives from everyone and to hear what one that has the intelligent schooling as yourself has to say to a no nothing layman like myself. And one thing I know is not everyone that fesses to be of God is of God because satan has his servants also. I'm not saying that to say you are I'm saying that to say I'm not naive to think eveyone that went to school to become ministers are of God. If I hurt your feelings in anyway it wasn't intended. I was just voicing my opinion and reply to your post. And since you have this above me feeling to not be here you can bet I won't knock on your precious forum again. But I will suggest that you see if a Forum for us laypersons to be able to talk about things and not feel hurt about it. I certainly hope that if eveyone doesn't agree with you that you don't throw a tantrum though and let your feelings get hurt and in the way. You take care and may the Lord continue to bless you to do His work and that is to spread His word and not yours.
1st off, if you are or were offended I am saddened that you are. 2ndly I agree not everyone who goes to theology schools is as we would say of God. I know it I am there and see this 1st hand. I attend school with people whom I know don't really have much regard for Jesus or the Word or you and I for that reason. Nevertheless that's no reason to knock school or those who go. I simply inquired of you as to why you felt inclined to answer a post for preachers on a networking site for preachers, I wasn't trying to chasten you.
Some of my post got cut off, and in the part that got cut I stated that by your dep love for God and your curiousity you are in a good place to grow in the faith. Take this oppoertunity and be a good steward. Perform a Google search on the authorization of the beloved KJV and then another on biblical translations. Be a scholar isn't God worthy of admiration from the mind as well? We can never know everything about God but we can know more about Him!
I am not dissing you but brother, I gave you some things to research and if you were serious about really deepining your faith, you would have at least tried to look that stuff up!
Curtis Mayfield said it best, we have alot of (Educated fools, from Uneducated schools) not calling you a fool my brother, but i ask what school of thought can teach me of Christ? Please know that the Laymen without respect of person, shall stand in the same Judgement as you and I. You truly should apologize too Bro. John. If one need schooling to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom or comment on it, then the Disciples must have been in grave error. Big words and trifling explanations are not necessary, what doth the qualifications of Dr.'s and Dentist to do with preaching.

God has not called us too make a career/ rather a he has called us to a newness of life through Christ Jesus. To be reconciled to him in righteousness/ as opposed to him in unrighteousness.
Ecclesiastes 12:12-14
12) And further, by these my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear GOD, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14) For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
The word of God was written by men who were inspired of God, not by the so-called educated. Rather by men who had experienced him firsthand. Salvation means what it means, and repentance and confession lead to it.
Haven't read of Augustine in the WORD itself.
When quoting other sources one must be careful, here is an example:
Martin Luther, was an anti-semite, meaning he did not bless Israel rather he degraded the JEWS (Gods people)

If the word needs to be understood/ it should come with much prayer and revelation, not so many different translations of whoever. Be calm and not so quick too pass judgement/ hear the others opinions and chew on them before responding, and if you are at work , work.
Try not being so quick to snap back and you yourself may learn also brother, for wisdom doesn't always come from being educated. Most times sound wisdom that comes with understanding comes from Living and learning from that in which we have lived, and learned.
Only in the church are people blasted and looked down upon for chosing to study to show themselves approved unto God in the classroom. And only in the black church are black folks who have endured racism, poverty, the systems of this world and have yet obtained degress treated as almost as uncircumcized Phillistines.

Every other vocation celebrates those who are well educated. Only ignorance bashes education. When will we come together and learn to celebrate those who have choses the path of discipline and education, and those who have received revelation. Certainly, the best of both worlds is the man or woman who has revelatioin of hte deep things of God, and who has also submitted him or herself as a student to the discipline of master teachers. That's what Jesus did.

Brother West, you gotta do better than this. Cant' we ALL just get along??? Don't throw THIS baby out with the bath water. Cut the brother a break--you are older--MUCH older--give him wisdom and support rather than a lecture and a tongue lashing.
We are ALL needed to get the job done for our people because our people are in dire trouble.

Bishop
If you read the post and do not judge it you will understand it, I was not putting the brother nor his education down. If one obtains knowledge from school, so be it. But an education does not make one superior. Our brother John is now left too feel that he doesn't matter too us, so he will no longer comment. WHY? because the educated feel as though he is not worthy, because he is not ordained or educated as a preacher, That is foolishness on the part of the preachers.

Please read the post and note I did offer him sound wisdom,
And let us be reminded that the young should never stand too admonish the elder. I am quite convinced that the brother has much too offer, seeing that he has been where many of us are trying too get.
And if our people need so, much why do the so-called educated get off putting down and casting aside the ones they deem as unlearned and lower than themselves. We as the Clergy must do better.
BISHOP, THE JESUS SAID CALL NO MAN MASTER (TEACHER), I didn't learn that in school, rather by studying to show myself approved. The people of this world are in dire trouble so just too be worried about some is not going too solve anything.
Brother Adrian, Brother Napoleon doesn't have to apologize to me. It's just that sometimes to me some of those that get that kind of education in the Lord are on pedestals as the Pharisees that liked to parade around and like the praises given to them and set in high places. I really wasn't trying to start an argument with Brother Napoleon or putting those that get educated down like maybe Bishop Hyman felt I was doing. I just don't agree that all that go to school are ordainded by God and are the only ones to know Him. I know I can't quote the big words and deliver quality sentences that shows intelligence to others. I don't care to because I'm just plain and genuine with what I ask and feel. It's alway good reading your post because though I feel you have much blessing and wisdom from God you don't put we laypeople down. Thank you for that. By the way I just wanted to repsond to this post by you. This is my last post here because as Brother Napoleon says maybe this is for the Preachers and Ministers and not for the rambling ignorants like myself. I'll ask questions and get answers and comment on other Forums but I will come and read what Ministers are saying just not respond. Don't want to offend anyone.
I didn't say you couldn't post. Moreover the length of time I spent commenting to you should convey that I am obviously interested in having correspondance with you. Yes you should learn some new stuff, but who among us shouldn't?
Also, I never called you a simle layman and all that other stuff. We were all at one time laymen, and moreover, My charge and commisioning call was to be in service to you, laymen. So if there was a heirarchical totem pole I'd be at the bottom! And never have I put laypeople down. To be ignorant is just simply to not know, there is no problem with not knowing something we're all ignorant to something! You commented on here, and I simply mentioned that you did not adress any of the questions I raised! So it's a free country! Keep writing if you want. I don't mind it enrishes the conversation. Please answer the questions because I want to get your take.

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