New Covenant Debate.............

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

There has arisen an issue concerning the details of the New Covenant that our LORD and Savior YESHUA/JESUS has won for us by HIS blood and grace. Therefore, we are opening this discussion and starting it off for the edifying of the saints and the settling of the matter:

The subjects for this debate are along two lines:

-Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8: Do we still stand on the Torah?
-the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Yes, actually HE was still under the curse of the Law. I didn't even mention that portion just now, but thanks for doing it for me. Romans 7 and 8 says this clearly. I never said that the Law was evil. I did say however it was done away with for the new covenant, because it was insufficient.

And yes, I will run to the epistles to prove my point, just as you run to the Torah to prove yours. Moses gave a decree for the O.T. to observe. The Apostles gave a decree, led by the HOLY SPIRIT, for you and I to observe. You literally are preaching another Gospel. And we didn't even start on your ridiculous claims for circumcision! If you want a laugh, thats the place to start!!

Its still funny also that you didn't address my full comment unlike how I do all of yours. For once, can you please engage my topics? You challenged me to this debate, now your dancing around the ring! I understand "Art of War" tactics, but this isn't evasive. What you are doing is outright RUNNING from my words! Fight me on my own grounds. The Word of GOD can address any enemy on any territory and take the ground in victory, right? Why not here at the Epistles? I fought mine at the Gospels, and you wouldn't even comment back. I fought mine in the O.T. and you dodged it. I even used the first book of the Torah and you couldn't refute it. All you could ever do was just disagree. Nothing wrong with disagreeing, but this is a debate.

Face me on equal grounds and don't dodge, and I already chose the Epistles! I beat you on yours, time to face me on mine. If you will not face me finally on a ground that I choose just as I accepted all of yours, then be done with it. But any true Bible student can do this. The choice is yours........

[Anna]

Trevor:
Please share with us the bible verse that tells us what are all the laws of the NEW COVENANT???
Please list those laws for us.

[Elder Matthew D. Ray]

Under the teachings of the Apostle Paul, sacrifice of animals, neither circumsision are necessary because of the cross.
Notice after the cross experience things changed and so did the covenant. Things moved from the practice of the law to practicing holiness. After the coming of Jesus, and after prophesy was fulfilled, we were no longer under the old testiment guidelines for living.

[James Pierce]

Elder,

Keeping Torah is holiness. That has never changed. We are still to keep Torah. There's no other way to live a holy life apart from Torah. Yeshuah taught Torah, and told His apostles to teach it(Matt 28).

[Anna]

Bro Ray:
You stated: " Things moved from the practice of the law to practicing holiness."

Where do you find the definition of Holiness in the NT?
Please give us the Bible texts which explain Holiness, as taught in the New Testament.

[Anna]

Bro Ray, you stated that Paul's teachings negated the sacrifice of animals.

Can you tell us why Paul undertook a Nazarite Vow, noted in Acts 18 & Acts 21, which involved "animal sacrifices" of a "he lamb", a "ewe lamb" and a "ram".

If what you are saying is true, then Paul "sinned" in taking these vows, but if what you are saying is not true, Paul was participating in something perfectly in accordance with Torah, years after the death and resurrection of our Savior. Interestingly Paul was never rebuked for taking these Nazarite vows.....

Will YOU now rebuke him???

In case you are unaware of this vow and Paul's participation in it, I have provided the following for your information:
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nazarite
Hebrew: form Nazirite

the name of such Israelites as took on them the vow prescribed in Num. 6:2-21

The word denotes generally one who is separated from others and consecrated to God. Although there is no mention of any Nazarite before Samson, yet it is evident that they existed before the time of Moses.

The vow of a Nazarite involved these three things,

abstinence from wine and strong drink,

refraining from cutting the hair off the head during the whole period of the continuance of the vow, and…

the avoidance of contact with the dead.

When the period of the continuance of the vow came to an end, the Nazarite had to present himself at the door of the sanctuary with…

a he lamb of the first year for a burnt-offering

a ewe lamb of the first year for a sin-offering

a ram for a peace-offering

After these sacrifices were offered by the priest, the Nazarite cut off his hair at the door and threw it into the fire under the peace-offering.

For some reason, probably in the midst of his work at Corinth, Paul took on himself the Nazarite vow. This could only be terminated by his going up to Jerusalem to offer up the hair which till then was to be left uncut. But it seems to have been allowable for persons at a distance to cut the hair, which was to be brought up to Jerusalem, where the ceremony was completed. This Paul did at Cenchrea just before setting out on his voyage into Syria (Acts 18:18).

On another occasion (Acts 21:23-26), at the feast of Pentecost, Paul took on himself again the Nazarite vow.

"The ceremonies involved took a longer time than Paul had at his disposal, but the law permitted a man to share the vow if he could find companions who had gone through the prescribed ceremonies, and who permitted him to join their company. This permission was commonly granted if the new comer paid all the fees required from the whole company (fee to the Levite for cutting the hair and fees for sacrifices), and finished the vow along with the others.

Four Jewish Christians were performing the vow, and would admit Paul to their company, provided he paid their expenses. Paul consented, paid the charges, and when the last seven days of the vow began he went with them to live in the temple, giving the usual notice to the priests that he had joined in regular fashion, was a sharer with the four men, and that his vow would end with theirs.

Nazarites retired to the temple during the last period of seven days, because they could be secure there against any accidental defilement" (Lindsay's Acts).

As to the duration of a Nazarite's vow, every one was left at liberty to fix his own time. There is mention made in Scripture of only three who were Nazarites for life: Samson, Samuel, and John the Baptist (Judg. 13:4,5; 1 Sam. 1:11; Luke 1:15). (See RECHABITES.)

This institution was a symbol of a life devoted to God and separated from all sin, a holy life.

Web Bible Encyclopedia
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/nazarite.html

[Anna]

Trevor:

Do you realize that Jeremiah 31:31 - 33 (quoted in Heb. 8) and most of the First Testament was written in Hebrew.
If so, then please read the following verse with the English and Hebrew translations SIDE BY SIDE, and tell me what the word laws/torah means not to you but according to Bible scholars/bible lexicons, dictionaries

Here is a little assistance for you from the Blue Letter Bible site:

Jer. 31: 31

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer. 31: 33
But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put *****my law***** in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

English (KJV) (Help) Strong's Root Form (Hebrew) Tense

But this [shall be] the covenant h1285 ברית bĕriyth

that I will make h3772 כרת karath

with the house h1004 בית bayith

of Israel; h3478 ישראל Yisra'el

After h310 אחר 'achar

those days, h3117 יום yowm

saith h5002 נאם nĕ'um

the LORD, h3068 יהוה Yĕhovah

I will put h5414 נתן nathan

********my law h8451 תורה towrah*******

in their inward parts, h7130 קרב qereb

and write h3789 כתב kathab

it in their hearts; h3820 לב leb

and will be their God, h430 אלהים 'elohiym

and they shall be my people. h5971 עם `am


Trevor, please tell us what is written in the hearts of the House of Israel in the New Covenant?

It is according to Strongs # 8451 - the TORAH. It is used 219 times in the First Testament. Here are the first few texts which use this word. This should give you a hint as to what is to be written into the hearts and minds of the New Covenant believers, specifically the House of Israel.

Gen 26:5 Because 6118 that Abraham 85 obeyed 8085 my voice 6963, and kept 8104 my charge 4931, my commandments 4687, my statutes 2708, and my laws 8451
.
Exd 12:49 One 259 law 8451 shall be to him that is homeborn 249, and unto the stranger 1616 that sojourneth 1481 among 8432 you.

Exd 13:9 And it shall be for a sign 226 unto thee upon thine hand 3027, and for a memorial 2146 between thine eyes 5869, that the LORD'S 3068 law 8451 may be in thy mouth 6310: for with a strong 2389 hand 3027 hath the LORD 3068 brought thee out 3318 of Egypt 4714.

Exd 16:4 Then said 559 the LORD 3068 unto Moses 4872, Behold, I will rain 4305 bread 3899 from heaven 8064 for you; and the people 5971 shall go out 3318 and gather 3950 a certain rate 1697 every day 3117 3117, that I may prove 5254 them, whether they will walk 3212 in my law 8451, or no.

Exd 16:28 And the LORD 3068 said 559 unto Moses 4872, How long refuse 3985 ye to keep 8104 my commandments 4687 and my laws 8451?

Exd 18:16 When they have a matter 1697, they come 935 unto me; and I judge 8199 between one 376 and another 7453, and I do make [them] know 3045 the statutes 2706 of God 430, and his laws 8451.

Exd 18:20 And thou shalt teach 2094 853 them ordinances 2706 and laws 8451, and shalt shew 3045 them the way 1870 wherein they must walk 3212 , and the work 4639 that they must do 6213 .

Exd 24:12 And the LORD 3068 said 559 unto Moses 4872, Come up 5927 to me into the mount 2022, and be there: and I will give 5414 thee tables 3871 of stone 68, and a law 8451, and commandments 4687 which I have written 3789 ; that thou mayest teach 3384 them.

Lev 6:9 Command 6680 Aaron 175 and his sons 1121, saying 559 , This [is] the law 8451 of the burnt offering 5930: It [is] the burnt offering 5930, because of the burning 4169 upon the altar 4196 all night 3915 unto the morning 1242, and the fire 784 of the altar 4196 shall be burning 3344 in it.

Lev 6:14 And this [is] the law 8451 of the meat offering 4503: the sons 1121 of Aaron 175 shall offer 7126 it before 6440 the LORD 3068, before 6440 the altar 4196.

Lev 6:25 Speak 1696 unto Aaron 175 and to his sons 1121, saying 559 , This [is] the law 8451 of the sin offering 2403: In the place 4725 where the burnt offering 5930 is killed 7819 shall the sin offering 2403 be killed 7819 before 6440 the LORD 3068: it [is] most 6944 holy 6944.

Lev 7:1 Likewise this [is] the law 8451 of the trespass offering 817: it [is] most 6944 holy 6944.

Lev 7:7 As the sin offering 2403 [is], so [is] the trespass offering 817: [there is] one 259 law 8451 for them: the priest 3548 that maketh atonement 3722 therewith shall have [it].

Lev 7:11 And this [is] the law 8451 of the sacrifice 2077 of peace offerings 8002, which he shall offer 7126 unto the LORD 3068.

Lev 7:37 This [is] the law 8451 of the burnt offering 5930, of the meat offering 4503, and of the sin offering 2403, and of the trespass offering 817, and of the consecrations 4394, and of the sacrifice 2077 of the peace offerings 8002;

Lev 11:46 This [is] the law 8451 of the beasts 929, and of the fowl 5775, and of every living 2416 creature 5315 that moveth 7430 in the waters 4325, and of every creature 5315 that creepeth 8317 upon the earth 776:

Lev 12:7 Who shall offer 7126 it before 6440 the LORD 3068, and make an atonement 3722 for her; and she shall be cleansed 2891 from the issue 4726 of her blood 1818. This [is] the law 8451 for her that hath born 3205 a male 2145 or a female 5347.

Lev 13:59 This [is] the law 8451 of the plague 5061 of leprosy 6883 in a garment 899 of woollen 6785 or linen 6593, either in the warp 8359, or woof 6154, or any thing 3627 of skins 5785, to pronounce it clean 2891 , or to pronounce it unclean 2930 .

Lev 14:2 This shall be the law 8451 of the leper 6879 in the day 3117 of his cleansing 2893: He shall be brought 935 unto the priest 3548:

Lev 14:32 This [is] the law 8451 [of him] in whom [is] the plague 5061 of leprosy 6883, whose hand 3027 is not able to get 5381 [that which pertaineth] to his cleansing 2893.

Lev 14:54 This [is] the law 8451 for all manner of plague 5061 of leprosy 6883, and scall 5424,

Lev 14:57 To teach 3384 when 3117 [it is] unclean 2931, and when 3117 [it is] clean 2889: this [is] the law 8451 of leprosy 6883.

Lev 15:32 This [is] the law 8451 of him that hath an issue 2100 , and [of him] whose seed 2233 7902 goeth 3318 from him, and is defiled 2930 therewith;

Lev 26:46 These [are] the statutes 2706 and judgments 4941 and laws 8451, which the LORD 3068 made 5414 between him and the children 1121 of Israel 3478 in mount 2022 Sinai 5514 by the hand 3027 of Moses 4872.

Num 5:29 This [is] the law 8451 of jealousies 7068, when a wife 802 goeth aside 7847 [to another] instead of her husband 376, and is defiled 2930 ;

Based upon the "law of first mention" tell us the Biblical definition of "TORAH".....

[Anna]

Where do we find a verse that states what the seal of the New Covenant is?

Please find and share with us a verse that specifically says "seal" and "new covenant".

Your philosophy or man made doctrines won't prove anything.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

James:

6 times you have said that you are no longer going to dispute this with me because you refused to argue the new covenant from the epistles of the new testament. When asked about two verse in Ephesians, you even said the unforgettable quote "I'm not going to address Ephesians because I'm not a legalist". Why are you still here?

Anna:

Don't quote Hebrews 8:8-12 if you are not willing to face verses 6,7, and 13, as well as the following two chapters. They do not support your doctrine, but refute it. You can go get a Strongs Concordance, I can get my Interlinear Bible, we can start speak Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic fluently, you can go dig up your own set of Dead sea Scrolls, you can even run to Rome and resurrect Paul and Peter for an interview for all I care, but it will not support your doctrine because your doctrine is true ONLY when speaking of the Mosaic covenant, not the new covenant & law of Christ!! How often have either of you done a wave offering, grain offering, drink offering, killed a lamb, let go of a scapegoat within the last year? How many times has your high priest gone and laid blood on the Ark of the Covenant (OLD COVENANT mind you) for your sins since you began worshiping GOD?

You challenge my position, but run from challenges every time! Its time all of you start facing questions and answering them just as much as you want answers from myself and others, otherwise stay silent on the matter:

-Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a "New Seal"? If so, what is the seal of the new covenant? If not, then why are Sabbaths circumcision, and feasts still the seal if this is a new covenant?
-What does Hebrews 8:6-13 mean? (NOT JUST 8-12, BUT BE SURE TO INCLUDE THE 6, 7, & 13 VERSE)
-What does Hebrews 9 have to say about this?

Answer those for a starter, please!

[Anna]

Trevor:
Unless we establish some order to this discussion we will get nowhere. So let's see if we can organize this discussion.
You asked a question regarding Jeremaih 31:31 - 33, since that is the first text given, let us all present our exegesis of this text.
I have asked you Treavor to explain your position on the term "TORAH" / LAW used herein which is written in the hearts and minds of the believers. And to whom is the "New Covenant" given, to Israel of to the Gentiles?
May I please have an answer to these questions?
If you are unwilling to answer this question, which you originated, from the Hebrew text from which it was written, we must only assume you are not being honest with the text.

[James Pierce]

Anna,

I do not think Trevor has it in him to actually stand up to the reality of Jeremiah 31. He will continue to run to his beloved apostles to defend him. He will skip the prophets AND Yeshuah. watch this..

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

The Apostles hold primacy in Kingdom order James, or did you forget something there. You in fact will run to O.T. Prophets and an old covenant to justify your point, while you can never give a straight answer. Any true believer in the new covenant can and MUST find their doctrine within the Epistles written by the Apostles. You said Yeshuah taught this doctrine of yours to them. OK then, where in their epistles do they pass it on down to us? I am not doing ANYTHING but putting your faulty doctrine up on the witness stand. Thats not an unreasonable question. Any new believing Bible student would ask this.