New Covenant Debate.............

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

There has arisen an issue concerning the details of the New Covenant that our LORD and Savior YESHUA/JESUS has won for us by HIS blood and grace. Therefore, we are opening this discussion and starting it off for the edifying of the saints and the settling of the matter:

The subjects for this debate are along two lines:

-Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8: Do we still stand on the Torah?
-the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Anna:

I haven't avoided anything. I thought that I posted my response to your questions long ago, but I must have messed up. One thing you cannot truly accuse me of is avoiding a question, because I have answer just about all of them, whether you liked the answer or not. Since I missed these, I'll tackle it right now:

1) YHWH is making a New Covenant. Who does these text say the New Covenant is made with?

These text say that it is made with Israel & Judah. However, these text are not the only text that you are to use when speaking of the New covenant. I said before that there were only but a handful of Prophets that spoke of it in the OT, but this IS a handful, meaning that Jeremiah's text is not the only one to consider.


2) What type of laws is this covenant made with?

The Law of CHRIST, not the Law of Moses. Its quite similar, but there are significant differences:

-Law of Moses says "Love thy neighbor as you love yourself", which sounds good but is flawed; Law of CHRIST says "love one another as I have loved you". You have not found such a commandment in the Torah. This commandment is far better, because the truth is people often do not even know how to love themselves correctly!

-Law of Moses says physical circumcision is still in play; Law of CHRIST says in Romans 2 that circumcision of the heart is now only required. This goes with righteousness that was even before Abraham, such as Noah, and Enoch.

-Law of Moses says "Honor the Sabbath and keep it holy", and says to keep certain feasts; Law of CHRIST says in Romans 14 "He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it", meaning it is between him and GOD. This goes with the righteousness found in Genesis, the times before the Law of Moses.

-Law of Moses says that we are to only eat certain foods that are considered "clean"; Law of CHRIST says in Matthew 15 "Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: these are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.", and in Romans 14 "I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died", and in Galatians

-Law of Moses says that males may only be priests of the LORD; Law of CHRIST says "there is neither bon nor free, Jew nor Greek, male nor female, for all are one in CHRIST."

-The great curse says that women are dominated by men, and the husband dominates the wife; the Law of CHRIST says "there is neither....male nor female for all are one in CHRIST", and "Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife."

-Law of Moses says all these laws are punishable by death, with little to no chance for repentance; Law of CHRIST says these are punishable by excommunication, with plenty of opportunity to repent.

These are just a few of the examples of the differences between the Law of Moses and the Law of CHRIST. You would claim that they are the same, but they are not as CLEARLY seen.

3) What is the spiritual condition of the world when the New Covenant is in force?

That is either a trick question, or a mixed up one. To my understanding, you are thinking of when Messiah returns for both HIS "millennial reign", and the "Eternal reign of GOD", both spoken of in Revelation and by Enoch and the O.T. Prophets, not when the new covenant is given. In wars, the last people to find out that a peace treaty has been signed and a cease fire has been called, or that one side has finally one usually are the soldiers on the field. The first to know are the generals and national leaders because they sign the treaties. You like the Jews of old think "Once Messiah comes, it will be total peace on earth and all is well!", but its not that simple. Even with HIS thousand year reign when HE returns, things won't be "perfect" just yet.

[Ephesians 5:11]

Hello Trevor,

One thing you cannot truly accuse me of is avoiding a question, because I have answer just about all of them, whether you liked the answer or not.

I asked you a question on another forum concerning Pastors & Tithing. I think maybe you overlooked my question. If you don't remember it I will repeat it for you. My question was, do you have any scriptural references that state, tithes are for the Pastor and not for the church? Thank you in advance.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!! They're coming out of the wood work!!!!! LOL!!!!!! I must have not seen it sir. When did you ask me this? I can answer that right now for you. (Why is it that you find it convenient to bring this up here and now? Why not bring your input on this subject?)

The word tithes is not taught in NT scriptures (to my knowledge), however, the concept is. Such offerings are for the taking care of GOD's poor people (Acts 4), His minister (1st Corinthians 9), and the funding of the spreading of the Gospel (2nd Corinthians chapters 7-9). I never said that they are not for the Church. However, many have argued that they are not for the Leaders either. Any questions or comments?

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

I have to ask.. What other Prophet in the OT speaks of the new covenant being made with Israel & Judah. This is where the law of "first mentions" come into place. What you are doing is avoiding the fact that this new covenant will not even be made with Gentiles. Yehwah clearly said that this is Israel's covenant. Gentiles are only added to the covenant.

[Ephesians 5:11]

Trevor I apologize for not stating the post where I replied to your comment. I was able to find it through my page and it is stated below: It looks like an older reply of yours on Should the church tithe to another church

Reply by Trevor T. Greene on February 28, 2009 at 12:50pm
Its up to the Pastor/ Ministers. The tithe is not only for the financing of the spreading of the Gospel, but for the feeding and tending to the needs of the Ministers. At the same time, the Pastor may want to (or in some cases NEEDS to) invest in the ministry to aid with the finances. It depends on the Minister and the situation.



Ephesians 5:11

Hello Min. Greene,
Do you have any scriptural references to show that tithes were meant for the spreading of the gospel and for the feeding and tending to the needs of the Ministers? Not looking for scriptures concerning offerings, but tithes specifically.

Thanks - My original question is slightly different than what was posted here.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

I stand by both my answers, this present one, and that that past one you placed up there. Its a combo of both.

[Anna]

Trevor, you sound like a politian! Lots of smoke and mirrors and no substance... lol

Ok.
Let's review your replies one at a tme.

My question; 1) YHWH is making a New Covenant. Who does these text say the New Covenant is made with?

Your Replly: These text say that it is made with Israel & Judah. However, these text are not the only text that you are to use when speaking of the New covenant. I said before that there were only but a handful of Prophets that spoke of it in the OT, but this IS a handful, meaning that Jeremiah's text is not the only one to consider.
~~~~~
You answered correctly, initially. However where are the OTHER texts that give some other recipient of the New Covenant. You said there were more, so it is incumbent upon you to produce them.

If you need help with some online study aids, here is the "simple search" of the KJV:

Here are three places to start with when searching for the New Covenant:

Jer.31
[31] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Heb.8
[8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

[13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away
.
Heb.12
[24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
~~~~~~~~~~~

Please remember we are dealing with the actual words of YHWH. Don't add to them, don't take away, thereby making yourself a liar.....

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Isaiah 60:19-20 "The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended."

Hosea 2:11-23 "I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts. And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These are my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them. And I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them, and she decked herself with her earrings and her jewels, and she went after her lovers, and forgat me, saith the LORD. Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her. And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali. For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name. And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD. And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; and the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God."

Joel 2:28-32 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (SPECIAL NOTE: Apostle Peter said that this was started on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2, not some distant day coming! This is NOW!)

Revelation 21:23 "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

These are your beloved OT scriptures! New covenant states that GOD shall first figuratively replace the sun and moon, then literally. All Sabbaths and feasts are to be started and regulated by the moon, am I correct? WHERE ARE YOUR SABBATHS IF YOU HAVE NO MOON?!??!!??!

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Hosea 2:11-23 "I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

The above scripture is pretty interesting. I want to address it. You actually taken it out of its historical context. Hosea is a book about "unfaithful Israel." Yehwah was going to plunge them into captivity if they repent not back to loving Yehwah and obedience to Torah. Hosea 2:11-23 is simply saying that Yehwah will end their partakings in His holy Torah by CAPTIVITY(invasion of the Assyrians), if they do not repent of their sins. That is what Yehwah meant when He said He will end their feasts, new moons, sabbaths, etc.

WHERE ARE YOUR SABBATHS IF YOU HAVE NO MOON?!??!!??!

Isaiah 60 agrees with Revelation 21 where it says Yehwah shall be our light. He shall be our temple. Obviously, since it was Yehwah that said from new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall worship me, HE will be the one that make it so for us to practice the new moons and sabbaths. Torah will forever be, and forever kept throughout the generations

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

You only look at things from a natural standpoint, and disregard the prophetic. GOD will speak to a now and also mean a future tense at the same time. There is no difference with GOD, for HE sees all things from outside of time, where as you are in time looking at things.

Eternity knows no time from. Thats is the concept of "forever" that man hardly grasps! Picture a time when time means nothing!! If time means nothing anymore, then the sun and moon have no more meaning or need. The Sabbath served as a two fold purpose:

-to commemorate the goodness of the LORD
-to indicate and prophecy of what GOD is about to do in this particular season and time
-to give us a time of "rest from the work" of trying to be closer to HIM

We need not have a holiday say time to celebrate what GOD did on this particular day, for we shall do that forever! We need not have a prophecy of what is to come, because GOD has fulfilled almost all now, and GOD will fulfill but only a few more things. One feast yet remains to be fulfilled. We will no longer work to be closer to HIM, for GOD live within the believer as he is filled and baptized in the HOLY SPIRIT. With the final reign of GOD and the doing away of Satan, the "Sabbath" that we will observe will not be "from sabbath to Sabbath", but it will be an eternal rest! No days to say "ok this sabbath has ended or began". A sun down indicates a Sabbath. How can you indicate the coming Sabbath if the sun and moon are literally taken out of the equation!??! What work will you be doing in eternity that you'll need rest from!?!??

[Anna]

Trevor, do you know the difference when YHWH says "these are my"

Leviticus 23 (King James Version)

Leviticus 23
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

4These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
~~~~~~~~~~~

Please note that the Sabbath and Feasts BELONG TO YHWH.

Do you dare say that they DON"T belong to Him?

He calls the Sabbath HIS HOLY DAY:

Isa.58
[13] If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

Do you dare say that the Sabbath is NOT HOLY, and that it is NOT HIS?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

James, you said:
"I have to ask.. What other Prophet in the OT speaks of the new covenant being made with Israel & Judah. This is where the law of "first mentions" come into place. What you are doing is avoiding the fact that this new covenant will not even be made with Gentiles. Yehwah clearly said that this is Israel's covenant. Gentiles are only added to the covenant, but we will not be in the initial group when this covenant is made. In other words, once national Israel agrees to obedience of this new covenant, then it goes into effect for both the Hebrew, and the Gentiles who are in Yeshuah."

There you go again, looking at things only from the physical eye and not the spiritual. You remind me of a Sadducee! When you say Jew/Gentile/Israel in the natural, you are saying a certain race born inside or outside of the bloodline of Abraham or one that has taken up a Jewish oath. When you see it from a GOD-eye-view, a view that sees all blood as the "sons-of-man" or sons-of-Adam, you will see that the term Kingdom of Israel spiritually means "Kingdom of the Prince of GOD", for that is JESUS. Prophecy has literally called JESUS "Israel", but you all only look at fleshly boundaries. The covenant is made with those that are regarded as righteous by faith in CHRIST JESUS, not just those who are related to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

You mention "law of first mention", but are debating from a standpoint of "law of ONLY MENTIONED". In other words, why haven't YOU mentioned the other Prophets that have spoken on the new covenant? You only look for a specific word like "covenant", but you forget that GOD has been planning this thing and speaking of it way before Jeremiah came on the scene:

-You and I both regard the Book of Enoch as well. You should be aware that Enoch mentioned such BEFORE ANY OTHER PROPHET EVEN LIVED! These quotes come from the book of Enoch:

Enoch l:2,4,5
"He shall select the righteous and holy from among them; for the day of their salvation has approached ... and they shall become angels in heaven. Their countenances shall be bright with joy ... The earth shall rejoice; and the elect possess it."

Enoch xxiv 11,10
"I blessed the Lord of glory, the everlasting King, because he has prepared this tree for the saints, formed it, and declared that he would give it to them ... The sweet odour shall enter into their bones; and they shall live a long life on the earth, as thy forefathers have lived; neither in their days shall sorrow, distress, and punishment afflict them."

Enoch xcii 17
"The former part of heaven shall depart and pass away, a new heaven shall appear."

These and others can be checked on http://www.stargods.org/EnochQuoted2.htm


-Prophet Nathan said in 2nd Samuel 7:10-16 BEFORE JEREMIAH "Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, and as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: but my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever." The son GOD spoke of was not Solomon, but JESUS.

-Prophet Isaiah said BEFORE JEREMIAH in Isaiah 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain." This speaks of the new covenant as you very well know.

-I made mention of Hosea before regarding the Sabbaths, and he was a Prophet before Jeremiah.

-Micah was a Prophet at the same time as Isaiah, and he made mention of the new covenant in the 4th chapter of his book.

Need I go on? I only touched a few Prophets. Your "law of first mention" for Jeremiah is running thin. You only look for that particular word "covenant", but that is a false way of looking at the Word of GOD.