There are many Christians that come against abortion and in the same breath can speak that the death penalty is ok.

If the issue is the santity of life? why is the death penalty considered godly(of all things) rolleyes.

For the record I do not believe in abortion and I do not believe in the death penalty as well. I do believe that some individuals should never leave prison, however it is not our right morally or SCRIPTURELY to take a life that God gave.

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Tracy it is always through suffering when the Gospel is spread through the unevangelized and unengaged world of the Bibleless people groups. Never in the history of the Gospel being moved forward did someone not suffer. It was never through prosperity did the Gospel make an impact in the world of the unreached as in with the Waotani tribe in South America. Great movie though and agreed, it changed how I viewed Christianity at its core. Notice how they, the missionaries never seeked to bring them to "justice" and seek to imprison them??? No prisons were built, just the prison of their hearts were changed by the power of His Word. Why more needs to go ye therefore....:)
The End of the Spear should be in every Christians household as to the demonstration of the power of forgiveness. I use that movie at prisons all the time. I actually met Steve Saint at Wyclifffe when they invited him to speak. The real reason why the wives and aunts of those stayed behind when their husbands were killed was to translate the Waodani bible in their mother tongue.
Can you believe it took me THIS long to actually watch that movie. I thought it was going to be a cheezy movie... but man oh man was I wrong.

The three scenes that just ripped my heart where the "Ready for Heaven" scene, the scene where the missionaries were murdered, and the scene where the chief admitted to killing Steve's father and said "they didn't shoot us". The tribe just could not understand why these men did not shoot. (I couldn't find the Ready for heave scene on youtube but I did find the other two)

ARMED MISSIONARIES GAVE THEIR LIVES....ARE WE SO BOLD AS TO DO THE SAME OR DO WE BEAR ARMS AND PROTECT OURSELVES BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY ALL THE WHILE SAYING... I WILL DIE FOR CHRIST?




FORGIVENESS!!! AND THE GOSPEL SHARED --

"NO ONE TOOK MY FATHER'S LIFE.. HE GAVE IT!!!"

THIS TRIBAL CHIEF WOULD PROBABLY HAVE NEVER UNDERSTOOD JESUS' SACRIFICING HIMSELF ON THE CROSS HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR A MAN WHO... DID NOT DRAW HIS GUN TO PROTECT HIMSELF.



Tracy I showed this movie to some young men in juvenile facility where one of the boys mother had just been killed and her throat cut by her boyfriend. The mental health administrator said that the boy was not mourning but seemed to be handling his mothers death too well. She asked me to go in the room where he was kept in isolation on suicide watch and some of his buddies and fellow prisoners were there to keep him company and they played video games laughing and joking around as if his mother was still alive.

Once I came in the room to speak to him, all three responded, "Hey Mr. Newman wassup, wanna get the winner of this John Madden game?" So as I was playing and beating them handedly I might add, the subject of his mother being killed came up. He told me, "its ok Mr. Newman cause I'm getting out of here in two months and I'm gonna handle it". I asked, "how are you going to handle it?" he told me that he knows where he hangs out and he's going to sneak up to him from behind and shoot him in the head. While saying this his other friends were egging him on saying, "yeah cause if someone did that to my momma i'd kill him too". Just so happened, I had the movie "End of the Spear" in my office and I proceeded to take it out and turn off the game and we watched it. At first they laughed when they saw the spears as they were used to kill people. I said, "dead is dead, no matter whether its a spear or a glock".. Anways, they continued to watch this powerful movie and freaked out when the missionaries didn't shoot the natives but gave up their lives for something greater than themselves. As it got deeper in the movie they could not even contemplate why the whites even stayed there to help the same people who just murdered their own. It went very deep after that. Since in these unevangelized areas of the world, revenge killings are the norm as well in Papua New Guinea and other tribal areas where the Gospel of Christ is not yet known.

By the end of the movie when the man when he was young admitted to killing the missionaries father, the son of the father who was murdered ultimately brought the native who murdered his father to the states as a witness to the power of God in transforming the entire village to Christ. The native who at this time is much older became the boys grandfather of the boy whom father was killed by him decades earlier. This is the true work of the Gospel of Christ.

Php 1:29 because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:

This is why whether your in Peru or South America in the Amazon or in PNG where there are revenge killings that goes on from generation to generation as well as cannibalism the eating and drinking of the blood of your enemies with the belief that you will take on their spirit and their strength and have even double the power to kill your enemies and are invinsible and a belief you will never die. These are the unreached people groups that are still around, is why missionaries need prayer by the saints at home cause its really dangerous to go as pioneers in search of these hidden people groups. But the Gospel first must be published in those lands in order for these groups to see and learn of the things of God. The whole chapter of Psalm 19 is very deep that speaks to the very issue of this.. The testimony of the universe comes forth consistently and clearly, but sinful mankind persistently resists it. For this reason, general revelation cannot convert sinners, but it does make them highly accountable. Salvation comes ultimately only through special revelation as the Word of Go is effectually applied by the Spirit of God.

Watching and observing green grass and blue skies and the works of God won't save you. That won't disclose nor reveal to us that we need to repent of our sins. Its only when we merge the works of God with the Will of God that brings into being God's perfect and just laws when we come to the understanding that He is just not us and that He is good, not us. That is what demonstrates to our heart the need to seek His perfect will by His innerant Word that cleanses and purifies the heart. Check out Psalm 19:1-7

Psa 19:7 "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."
Trevor you said,

I would, and I'll gladly go to the gallows, chamber, firing squad or whatever for fighting and even killing in the name of protecting my wife and family! I am not called to stand and die like a fool. I am called to stand and defend my family like a man.

Again, I recall the scene from the movie End of the Spear. In it, there is a scene called Ready for Heaven:

Just before flying in to engage the Waodani (natives), Steve Saint asks his father if they will use their guns if attacked. He replies, “No. If we die, we are ready for heaven, but the Waodani are not.”

I wonder what would have happened if they had drawn their guns and defended themselves instead of "standing and dying like fools"?

We make such absolute statements and if God required it of you... would you do it? Would you die? Would you allow your family to be murdered for the Gospel?

You see, what turned that tribe and especially their chief around was not the gospel spoken but the gospel shown. What gripped their hearts was that the men did not use deadly force to protect themselves.

We speak so vehemently about "defending the gospel" and our faith heroes of the new testament defended the gospel by giving their lives for it.

Just throwing something to think about out on the table. (smile)

Could I do it??? Not with my own strength.. not at all. With my own strength I could not watch my family murdered for the sake of the gospel. I'd be crying out to God the entire time for the strength to endure it.

I'm kinda like Peter... it's hard enough for me to keep my mouth shut in certain situations and hard enough for me not to want to protect myself and my family against a person who appears to be a threat to me and my family.

"Whosoever will lose his life for my sake...." well you know the rest.

How can we say we are ready to die for Christ's sake if we really aren't? We expect the threat of death to come directly as a result of our stand for the Gospel. We expect that threat to be someone standing before us saying DENY CHRIST OR DIE. But what if they just point a gun at you and say give me your wallet or die and never mentions your belief?


I'm not saying go out like a punk... as some would think.. but have you considered that the threat to your life may have only an INDIRECT link to your belief???
"where were those Christians that were concern about the MAN'S soul?"

Yup, like I said: Spoken like a true Evangelist!
alright Greene lol you cruising, actually there is scripture in the Old Testament that exonerates an individual if he kills protecting his family, I have to find it, again there is a difference between murdering someone and killing them in the manner of self defense or an accident, even war.
....or a death sentence in a fair court!!
Is the death penalty the punishment of death for committing crimes deemed punishable by death?

If so, then an act of war for some requires the defensive reaction of war which often requires the intent of taking the life of others.... so in this case, the penalty of deadly force is acceptable.

Defending one's possessions, personhood and family with deadly force is a form of death penalty and is also permissable for some.

So, then in truth, when we say we are against the death penalty, we are actually against a person going before judge and jury and being convicted of a crime punishable by death and going to jail and some years later being put to death (whether they become saved or not)

When reading some of the responses here, you're not REALLY against the penalty of death.. because there seem to be some ... exceptions.

Thou shalt not kill.... (unless they are trying to kill you...) If so, then thou shalt not kill is not absolute. If there are ANY exceptions to the penalty of death.. then there is no absolute in saying one is against the death penalty.
Its the US court system that she's against!!! I don't blame her or anyone else......
Trevor, that is pretty much what I said ... LOL

That is why I ask questions. I don't assume to know EXACTLY what a person means when they say something unless I ask questions.

Even you said you were against the death penalty but then turned around and said you would kill a person who was a threat to you and your family. That my friend is indeed.... the penalty of death for the threat to you and your family. It just didn't involve the U. S. Court System up front.
Actually, no. I said I am FOR the death penalty! I am against ABORTION. I would charge those doctors with Murder in the first 1st, which holds th death penalty as punishment.

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