Believers you have a responsibility to take note and act upon 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approve, the word of God is pretty clear there, so we cannot blame someone else for not knowing what the word of God says. There are ample indication in the word of God which directs us to know the word, to study the word and to discern who and what gives us food and the food that we are being fed this means there is a lot of responsibility placed on the individual to ensure they study the word.
Take note that there are an awful amount of warnings giving to us about false teachers and prophets so we have no excuse in allowing ourselves to be deceived.
The word of God is truth and the truth will set us free, therefore satan has no conceivable reason to teach the truth because he knows that the truth is powerful so why would he want us to have that power, therefore it behooves us if we want to be free to know the truth. The devil will always teach a lie and that same lie if we believe it, will be our downfall, because when you are deceived into believing a lie you are thus unable to see the truth so you accept and commit to the lie which lead us away from the path of God and in the end that lie will damn us. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
Anyone who blindly follows another without question and accepts things blindly without testing it, is in serious problem. So don’t think the leaders will be taking the punishment for peoples stupidity, they will be punished for their own unrighteousness as will everyone for there own unrighteousness including going after or believing and committing to a lie.
It sounds good, really does, but with a new believer that is all they are doing is following blindly and trusting blindly. They do not know what else to do.
Sarah I beg to differ because 4 years ago I was a new believer and I became a new believer because Christ came to call me that is when I knew without a shadow of doubt that I believe. I was born into the church and grew up into the church but all I could see was man so I did not believe not until my eyes was open to Christ. No one Sara can truly come to Christ unless the Father draw them so anyone who trust in man instead of Christ is not a true believer, does not mean they cannot become a true believer but at present they are not because when your trust is in man, you will fall too the minute that man fall.
Ok here we have a choice, whether we believe the Bible is true or not? Assuming we go with the concept that the Bible is true, here is what it says about Ephesians 12to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
Let's start with God ordaining the five fold gift ministry, so it is God's will that it be there? Normally these are people and if one ignores and apostle they are ignoring God, so yes we are supposed to be able to trust those in the body of Christ as each in the body of Christ and supposed to represent the love and will of God, making us Ambassadors for Christ, a royal priesthood and ministers of the gospel.
So I am honestly not trying to argue, but the church is telling people in general that people should trust them and scripture indicates that people should also be able to trust people.
The other day we had a discussion about unity and unity comes from the five fold gift ministry according to this scripture. The other thing the five fold gift ministry does, if people pay attention that is it provides each in the body of Christ "the" way and only way they can grow to maturity, once again if we believe the Bible is true.
So to recap, the five fold gift ministry especially apostles speak for God and we should be paying attention to them, If we do not respect the apostles we do not respect God. We talked about division happening and the only way for division to end is through the five fold gift ministry, because division is caused from familiar spirits that suggest doctrines of devils and they blow all over the church, but the way the doctrines of devils occur is because people are not paying attention to the five fold gift ministry.
So yes we are telling people to trust the body of Christ.We are instructed though to trust God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit of course, but also the body of Christ as the two cannot be separated and before Bibles came to print, that is all there were.
I understand you have witnessed things in the church you went to, but my bet is they had nothing to do with the five fold gift ministry? To trust Christ is to trust the body of Christ as well. It is the same Spirit that Jesus was led by that we are supposed to be led by.
So yes I fully agree dumb, crappy stuff goes on all the time in the church, but that does not mean that it is God's will. I am fully persuaded that the five fold gift ministry is the only way to go. The facts speak from themselves that when the church works outside of the five fold gift ministry and evangelize as much as 96% fall away and thank you God you did not fall away yourself and when they have fallen away they become bitter and hurt and work against the body of Christ. True it is the Holy Spirit that draws people and to that I do agree, but it is the body of Christ that is supposed to walk together for their to be love and unity.
In the group you run you have stated a time or two that many in the group have been burned by the church and that grieves me more than I can express, but it happens because of the lack of the five fold gift ministry and a lack of love and a lack of unity, which comes through the five fold gift ministry.
Yes this is a huge area where Satan has got into the church when the church does not believe in or accept God's ministry, which is the five fold gift ministry.
'I understand you have witnessed things in the church you went to, but my bet is they had nothing to do with the five fold gift ministry? To trust Christ is to trust the body of Christ as well. It is the same Spirit that Jesus was led by that we are supposed to be led by'.
Sarah your quote above, are you mixing me up with someone else. I am still in the church building that I was when I got save. Not sure where what you stated above came from, except you may be mixing me up with someone else.
No it is a statement that is supposed to be true for all people, If we are in Christ and of Christ or of God then we are supposed to represent Christ and how God feels about people to all people on earth.
Jesus said, "they will know that you are mine by your love one for the other?" Which means at least to me is that we are suppose to love each in the body of Christ as much as Jesus does and did. The bride in the grooms absence represents the groom in all things pertaining to man. Who we forgive is forgiven and those who we do not forgive, will not be forgiven. If we have been given love, then we are to love equally as He has loved us and if He has given us grace then we are to give grace or if He cares for us financially then we also must care for others financially. God's justice comes through the body of Christ and through each one of us in the body of Christ.
While John 3:16 is about Jesus love towards us, and Jesus laying down His life and will for the life and will of the Father who sent Him, 1 John 3:16 is about being like Him as we are called to lay down our lives and will so that others may live. If it is true about Jesus then it is also true about the body of Christ. Most today in the church do not properly discern the body of Christ and as a result they sleep. It happens because they take the blood and body of Christ unworthily. The Lord's table is a blessing and a curse for those that do not discern the body of Christ.
How it is supposed to be is if people talk to us, they are supposed to be talking to Christ in us. It is not that we are something, but it is because He has made us sit with Him already. But Christ is one in the same as the body of Christ as we are as His bride to represent the groom in all things pertaining to man in His absence.
The way in which you made that statement is as if I told you I had been a witness to something bad in my church that I attend.
Anyway, to ensure there is clarity, I am grateful and thankful that God as placed me in a Holy Ghost filled church where we are encouraged to study and are taught in order that we will be aware of what the Bible says.
We have a leader who believe he should not have more knowledge than the congregration, a leader who wants us to be self-sufficient and wants us to be equiped to discerning the truth.
I guess my conclusion was based on what you said here, "Sarah I beg to differ because 4 years ago I was a new believer and I became a new believer because Christ came to call me that is when I knew without a shadow of doubt that I believe. I was born into the church and grew up into the church but all I could see was man so I did not believe not until my eyes was open to Christ."
I guess I took that to mean that the church in which you were raised in all you could see is man? I was apologizing as what you were supposed to see is a representation of God's ways and will and hopefully love, which is what anyone should experience in the church. To me at least if one see's man in the church and not God then it is sad. What one should experience in the church is the very hand of God.
Words are interesting and difficult sometimes to understand the meaning of the words one is using or the context of how one is using the words. For example you said, "We have a leader who believe he should not have more knowledge than the congregration, a leader who wants us to be self-sufficient and wants us to be equiped to discerning the truth."
I am sure you meant that as a good thing, but what I see in the church is that people need God and each other badly, even daily, which to me would not be self-sufficient, but God sufficient and Christ sufficient, but also includes the body of Christ as Christ is not headless, but I do understand that is how many see Christ. They see Christ as just simply being Jesus and not seeing His body which is us.
The tie to me at least goes back to the place where Adam was created in God's image and what Jesus did was died so that the relationship could be restored where we have the opportunity to walk with God as Adam did. Many churches tend to teach and try to get in the way of that relationship, but that is not God, but man's way.
This all has to do with what one believes one is getting in the salvation package and what is included in that package, which ranges from being saved from going to hell, all the way to being the bride of Christ, which is the body of Christ that represents the groom in all things having the same power and authority in heaven and earth as Jesus did and as Eve had as she came from Adam. Although I also see that Eve was not taught as she could have been what it actually means to eat from the tree she did or was perhaps not explained what would happen if she did.
The body of Christ is just as attached to Jesus as Adam was connected to Eve.
Sarah a non believer usual don't see God they see man as a non believer I saw man I knew about Jesus , the Bible but it really did not mean anything to me because I was still blind.
Only when I receive Jesus that my eyes open, the scales having been remove so then I could see clearly, it was then that I saw Jesus, it was then that the Bible which I read my whole life began to show me its mysteries that was hid to me a unbeliever.
Sarah because you think 5 fold and nothing else it is difficult for you to see outside of the box and that is not saying the 5 fold is not important but if you read through the Bible there are lots of things that is important. The Bible speak a lot of individual walks as well as unity so you cannot closed your eyes to that, as well as unity there is a personal relationship that must be develope between the individual and Christ.
The Beattitudes was directed to help one in their individual walks that did not mention the 5 fold. Now Sarah I am not trying to get into a battle with you over the 5 fold Ministry, I spend a year researching the 5 fold Ministries and wrote a 5000 word thesis on the 5 fold Ministry based on Ephesians 4:11.
However Sarah there are 66 books with about 1189 chapters and about 31,103 verses that make up the Bible so you have to stretch yourself to accepting and realising that there is a lot more in the Bible than the verse of Ephesians 4:11.
I am saying these out of love Sarah you cannot just be blinkered to the 5 fold ministry there is a lot more to the believers walk than the 5 fold ministry. Love is a bigger part yet there is a lot more to the Scriptures than just to love. Believe it or not even though you think different studying the word of God for one self plays a big part of out walk, evangelising plays a large part, praying plays a large part.
Sarah don't be fooled into thinking that having a leader out of the five fold ministry is the biggest part of being a believer it is not. The bigger part to the 5 fold ministry is to study, evangelise and pray.
Ok there is some truth to that but we also have to look at the time frames and the beatitudes was written under the Old Covenant.
I am not sure when all of this changed, in growing up somewhere we strayed off the path, that if we give a half truth we now consider it to be alright or acceptable in the church and then when our children give half truths they are in error? Somehow that just doesn't work?
It all starts with what one is told salvation is and what comes with it and then goes from there. If one is told a half truth from a church that preaches a half truth, they end up with a half truth in salvation and what it all means?
I said all of that which gets me back to God's will and the five fold gift ministry as most take it as optional or take it that it was in a different dispensation so if it is in a different dispensation then it is alright to walk without the five fold gift ministry.
So we tell people that salvation is trusting and obeying yet the church at large is teaching a half truth in what salvation means and what comes with it and then to get around being responsible for it, we then do away with the five fold gift ministry, taking people further in the wrong direction further away from God allowing them to teach half truths in the church, let alone a half truth in what comes with salvation.
Once upon a time God was rather serious. In fact God was so serious as He instructed Moses to take Israel into the promised land and Moses a leader by the way, decided not exactly to take people into the promised land and as a result Israel wandered and died in the desert except two families.
Now when Moses was a leader he was anointed, and that anointing was a mantel over him as a leader. He was not even filled with the Holy Spirit as we are all supposed to be filled with the Holy Spirit, but the leaders of the church are also supposed to be anointed as leaders. What Jesus did is through Him everyone is a leader. like it or not. It is why it is said we are ambassadors for Christ, ministers all and of a royal priesthood. Now that is the truth and with that comes the responsibility that Moses had.
What the church has done is it has diminished what was done for us on the cross as it makes it more palatable for most and as we have it now we have had several generations that have not only started with a half truth, but also have churches built around half truths and they know better in seminaries. If they do not know better then the seminaries are teaching half truth, then what is the point of the seminary?
This is a call of the church to get back to holiness, which is almost a totally different thing than what is being preached today in most churches. One of two things is happening in the church, either the truth, the real truth is either being kept from the church or the church does not know any better, but in either case as with Moses the people get to suffer and wander into the desert.
You mention evangelism which is fine inside of the five fold gift ministry, but when it is done outside of the five fold gift ministry is reduced to half truths and that is why I go on and on about God's will and the five fold gift ministry, because part of holiness is going back to how God set it up and in obedience we either walk in it or discard it, but beware if we discard it then we walk away from the truth?
You said the bigger part of the five fold gift ministry is to study, evangelize and pray and it does not say that in scripture, but it is ok that you believe that. If the five fold gift ministry is God's will for the body of Christ and the church walks outside of the five fold gift ministry discarding God's will, then the salvation that is given to the people is far less than the real thing.
You said it many times, the truth will set you free, but if one is always working in half truths the are buried and enslaved and that is what has happened in the church today and is always my concern for the church and what is happening.
So if the truth will set you free, having a half truth is not having the truth, it is having the false. That should concern everyone that is interested in truth? I would hope?
Sarah I don't think I have been in any discussion where anyone says they want to do away with the 5 fold, however I think most people will not use only one verse of the Bible to be the factor that is most important. Paul spoke of lots of gifts and you are only concentrating on the 5 fold. There are lots of things spoken about in the old covenant such as the day of rest, and the ten commandments.
The thing is when Christ went to the cross he did so to remove satan as our slave master to sin, he did so that we would no longer be slave to sin, he did so that we now become the master instead of the slave so that we can make a choice to sin or not to sin.
Now the same people who go around saying that the way we walk is under the old covenant appear to want everyone to observe the sabbath which is definately under the old covenant, we cant have it both ways and that my dear is the half truth the people who are going around changing the rules around of what matters and what don't but the biggest quarter truth is to think that one verse of the Bible is only thing that matters.
The thing that is dividing the body of Christ is the fact that people are choosing only to accept bits of Christ words that suit them and not taking all of it into account that is the thing that is dividing the body of Christ, the notion that we can live satan's life and still get into the kingdom those are the things dividing the body of Christ but hey it is only a narrow road so only a few will make it the thing is who will be on that path I guess we all have to wait to see.
Sarah or you seriously saying the word of God does not say one is to study, evangelise and pray. And that there is not more than one verse which either directs us or indicate we are to do these things.
I am not sure if you are misunderstanding me but there is only one verse of the Bible that have specifically mention the 5 fold ministry in totallity and that is Ephesian 4:11 no where else is it mention in totallity or implied.
Yet to make new disciples (evangelising) is mention and implied in many places, to instruction to pray is mention in many places and the instructions to Study is mention as well as implied in many places so yes these three appear from the word of God to be of far greater importance than the 5 fold ministry
And I am talking about the New Covenant as I know you like to mention that things were of Old Covenant