But what is your take on what would have happened if the prodigal son or anyone who had received salvation backslides by rejecting the Father, His Son, the Holy Ghost and totally turned away from the faith and DIED without having repented or had the opportunity to return to the fold. Would that person be heading for hell or heaven? This is a conversation that came up with a couple of my work colleague when we were in an after discussion on Luke 15:11-32 so I would be interested in having a discussion and receiving everyone's point of view.
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Ephesians 1:10; the word, Oikonomia, means administration, dispensation, management. In the Scripture dispensation means God's administration of human history. God changed some methods, since His revelation was progressive. For example, there is the dispensation of innocent, before the fall. After the fall, was another policy brought in, and other changes continued until the coming of Christ, called the dispensation of the hypo-static union. and now we are in the church age, or dispensation. In the future will be the dispensations of the tribulation, and finally the millennium reign of our Lord, Jesus Christ. These are biblical periods of history as administered or managed by God.
I know some scholars over flogged the word 'dispensation'. Nevertheless, that does not negate the biblical significant of dispensation. I think also that sometimes we may be wrestling over certain issues or words that means or matters nothing.
Finally, I am enjoying and sharing this forum with you all because I love you,. For God loved us first, and commanded us to do the same.
It's always nice to be correct but like Paul we should all be wrong and allow Him to be right an with that I fully agree if it does not lead to love and some sort of unity, it is the work of a familiar spirt.
You said, "I know some scholars over flogged the word 'dispensation'. Nevertheless, that does not negate the biblical significant of dispensation. I think also that sometimes we may be wrestling over certain issues or words that means or matters nothing."
Yes i fully agree the dispensationalist went to the far right for a long time and burned people.
I also see that off of the earth's history and the world's with a continuous line. It got worse mostly because the Jews did not bring people. They sort of felt God was there and and had difficulty in accepting the concept that God was a God for all. I see that God over a period of time added to the changes that were made based on Adam. I see that God had a choice to destroy all of His people or come up with plan to or adding on the the previous covenant and I full agree that there are several covenants, but still there is noting in scripture that says those time periods are dispensations, but some teachers thought that it should be a dispensation base on their belief and understanding of what a dispensation is, but did not see that the word would be over used and that it would lead to confusion, so with that in mind I question that the teaching came from God.
But let us assume there is different dispensations, are you saying that if the people get another dispensation that the previous is no longer valid? I mean for a person like myself who is not a part of many of the teaching I am not sure what the ramifications are going from one dispensation to the next. In the covenants it was more like the covenant was upgraded, but it was still there, well that is until the arrival of Christianity that said the covenants before Jesus are no long valid. If God or Jesus would have said something like that, I would go for it, but many teachings change what is written in the Bible to discredit previous covenants.
God made it clear that He remembers all of His covenants, but fell short of saying that He remembered any dispensations. I have see so many teachings in Christianity the do attempt to discredit Jews or the covenants through the years.
The Davidic Covenant (building the kingdom of God)
It is amazing to me that the Christian Dispensations led close to the covenants, but like trying to start an argument between those that honored the covenants and those that kept dispensations.
For many years, if one looks at history Christians we see a pattern of behavior that was even teaching that Jews were no long God's people and it was out with the old and in with the new.
Like i earlier said, there will always be disagreement in the body of Christ. And there will continually be distortion of doctrines. Even if Christ should appear now, some will nonetheless dispute him. All these are the manifestation of the activities of the old sin nature we inherited from Adam.Nevertheless, God will hold us, by our volition accountable for all the choices and actions we took in life.
I understand there are people who will always raise hell when the hear the word "dispensation', and you happen to be one of them. However, the term is essential if one desires to understand God's progressive administration of human history If it has been distorted that cannot negate its biblical concept and significance.. Please if you can name anything in this life that is not distorted i will agree with your viewpoint about dispensation.
And if one is to follow your various line of arguments you should not forget that the word 'BIBLE" cannot be substantiated from the Canon of Scripture. Any comment?
Further, dispensation is a change in biblical administrations. There are a hold lot of distinction and practice in OT and the NT church that has been discontinued or abrogated, that's the dynamics of dispensation.The plan of God for Israel and the mechanics for it execution is not the same with God's plan for the church. God's plan and its technique is altered for the FUTURE period of tribulation and the millennium reign of Christ.These are interpreted as dispensations.
Look at the beauty of dispensation as it is captured in the Scripture shortly before Christ ascended into heaven. Acts1:6-7; ( NASB) And when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the Kingdom to Israel? He said to them, it is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority. A careful and objective exegesis or study of this passage of Scripture will unlock our eyes on dispensational truth..
News Alert! To the Jews, the church was entirely unknown but God had its mystery in mind. At the proper period of dispensation He revealed it, and brought in certain changes that shocked the Jewish believers. That even the Gentiles could be counted as one with Jews, was very hard for the Jews to swallow. That's the amazing power of a gracious God.
Finally, I respectfully suggest you get other doctrinal materials, rather than embarking on certain academic speculations, which engenders contention and strife. In such case, either both of us are wrong, or one is wrong and the other right.
I love you, in Christ.
Thank you I need all the love I can get. Love you as well.
To me the goal to reach people on earth will take communication. The message needs to be clear and when we add words in that make it very unclear, because meanings have changed and or words mean different things to different people.
My point is, why use words that can be mistaken for something else. We just sort of went through that with the word dispensation. Why use words that have a variety of meanings. Do we just want to show how smart we are or are we doing to piss people off? If so, then we really need to look at our motives.
We use words like Christian, dispensation, even the word "word" has different meanings. I have been to churches where people are upset when I said that Jesus is the Word, not the Bible. Caused a riot. But words like the word are mistaken often. A good example of that is faith cometh by hearing and hearing cometh by the word. These folk thought it was the Bible that it was talking about in this scripture, but failed to realize that there was no Bible when that scripture was written. The verse was talking about Jesus when He speaks to us which is a faith builder. This church seemed to believe that God does not talk to people. So I asked, how can you be led by the Spirit of God then? They said all the answers are in the Bible.
This is a big denomination church. Ok I will say it. The Church of Christ and they walk around making it sound like they are it and everyone else is out there in space.
We use words like "Christian" thinking the other person understands what we mean, but if you take a trip to areas around the Holy Land, you will quickly find out when someone uses the word "Christian" they are people that kill Muslims.
We use words like salvation thinking that everyone is going to understand what it is. For Israel salvation was more for this life on earth. To the Christian it is more about the next life.
On forums and places on the Internet, one never knows who they are talking with and if we want them to come to Christ we all need to use words that are very clear. If these words can be confusing, why do we use them. Do we want to cause problems? Do we want to start and argument? Are we trying to show how smart we are? Of course everyone will say they are not trying to do that, but scripture tells us that if we are being offensive we need to stop!
If we offend a messenger from God, we offend God. If we offend anyone we offend God.
Honestly your conclusion is that I should know everything and read all the doctrinal materials before making a post? Do you really mean that? I would think expecting everyone to understand what you think you understand would be considered arrogant?
Now if we were on a university or seminary level and everyone was on the same page then that is one thing. This is a public forum and this thread was not supposed to be about dispensations or even Christianity. It was supposed to be about "Salvation is it eternal regardless of circumstances or not come on lets get everyone's opinion."
Statements like this are thrown in, "News Alert! To the Jews, the church was entirely unknown but God had its mystery in mind. At the proper period of dispensation He revealed it, and brought in certain changes that shocked the Jewish believers." I can only assume it was made to cause problems. The reason Jesus came in the first place was because God's people were not living in the faith they were given. Israel the most powerful nation on earth was surrounded by Rome and it happened because Israel entered covenant with the Rome. It is a teaching that says that it was the end of a dispensation.
When we, God's people enter covenant with the enemy we are asking for problems and we begin the process of not hearing from God. That was the problem then and it is exactly the problem today. And you might say how is the church entering covenant with the government? It is actually pretty simple, everyone has a 501c3 and the only way you can get one is to agree with all the laws. That means you have to agree with abortion. That means you have to agree with starting wars. That means that you have to agree with the justice of the courts which puts the government over the body of Christ. You will find that from the governments perspective that if you do not have a 501c3 you are not a church. From God's perspective if one even belongs to a church that has entered covenant with the world, then like it or not, you are also part of the problem.
The way back is 2 Chronicles 7:14 but if your not willing to get rid of your status with the world, which in very big part happens with a 501c3, then one really is not repenting. It is very much saying to God, "you do it my way". We are then placing ourselves above God and when that happens whether one means it or not, the Spirit of God starts to withdraw and then the church starts going for knowledge, deciding what is good or not.
Now most that have read what I have written seem to think that I am somewhat off my rocker, but what if the things I said came from God? To whomever, I would suggest one seeks God and wait on Him for answers instead of continuing on. Not for me, I am nothing. But for your relationship with God.
It really is sad
My dear, this your fresh revelation from '"God', i am skeptical of, course, God cannot contradict His written Word.
Again, if you cannot offend people by professing your faith respectfully, then, one may put a question mark on your faith. The goal of a biblical presenter is to preach the message, but the methods may vary. Nevertheless, some people would still pick offense. Compromise with truth is tantamount to deception, and it is satanic. This world is technically the devil's world. Many policies of the government is evil, however, we cannot white-wash the devil's world. Social issues we can't interfere, but preach the good news, and allow people to make their choices. We pray for them and take comfort in the coming of an eternal kingdom.
Besides, i observed that Our disagreement is basically on the foundation of Christianity, and on almost every aspect of healthy christian living, in fact, it is something serious. Either we all got it wrong, or one is right and the other wrong.
Finally, Christ came not because the Jews were in disobedient, but to fulfill prophesies and ultimately die on the cross for the sin of the whole world.
My brother, I enjoy your points of argument, references and emphasis . i think that is what this forum is all about.
Like you rightly pointed out, There are innumerable benefits from translations, in spite of some red flags. Consequently, every Bible Speaker must study hard to unearth 'hidden' truths, which the arrogant amongst us failed to realize. Let's not be deterred nor dismayed about this obvious development in the body of Christ. My prayer and aspiration, like Jesus Christ did, is that God would bring along those will be positive to doctrinal exposition. For faith comes by hearing sound teaching.
Additionally, dispensation is simply a theological term to explain changes in divine administration of human history. To me, i do not see anything wrong in it, and there's nothing sinister in using the word 'christian' to identify or differentiate those who are Christ disciples, or believers. Thanks.
I think that our first need would be to locate such an occurrence in Scripture and then see what Scripture says. I am unable to remember any such happening and I think that the primary reason is that the Scripture teaches that the Saint is a Saint because he/she has been made a "new creature in Christ" according to 2 Corinthians 5:17. The rebellion that would cause a person to turn from God and go their own way (Isaiah 53:6) is the rebellion that was dealt with on Calvary by Christ. Scripture is silent on how a "new creature" may return to being the old creature and so I must accept that it is an impossibility.
Now I believe what people think is reversion is really just the manifestation of the lack of conversion. Scripture warns that many would appear spiritual and even perform supernatural acts and yet hear, "Depart from me ye that work iniquity. I NEVER knew you."
Actually I fully agree with you as it is not knowledge or even walking on water or even raising the dead that is important, but what is important is ones love one for the other and that can only be accomplished in a close relationship with Jesus.
One way that I see and it is just an opinion, but if one does not honor the commandments they place themselves above God, which is how one is as "the old creature." To me the sign of the old creature is a lack of love and sensitivity to others. If we look at Matthew 25:31-46 it was the righteous that said "when did we see you hunger, " etc which certainly is a lack of heart to care for the things God cares about. God cares little about church buildings and all the possessions that come with it. What He cares about is if we have a heart for God, which comes through Jesus to care for the things God cares about, which is to love and care for the needs of others. I would add to that, with that care and love we should always do so in the name of Jesus and show people why the commandments, statutes, covenants and ordnances are very important, because God's promise to His people that keep those things is that one would never have to beg for bread.
In the Old Testament one of the names for God was El Shaddai or provider. We honor Him and He honors us and takes care of us. If God gives us someone to teach we are to teach them all that He has taught the disciples and His promise is if we did that then "lo I am with you always even to the end of the age."
You still don't get it. I read them. So what? Your position is simply "once saved always saved," based on the belief that all it takes is to believe and I said "Satan is the biggest believer and he is not making it."
What your not seeing and it is really because your not trying to see it but because your a stinking Reverend it puts you over people. Talk about stinking thinking! It is the same belief system you have that allows you to call yourself a Reverend and I even demonstrated where that belief came from and it is right out of history.
Your saying my thinking is flawed, but you never really come back with an explanation of where the flaw is. I mean stop looking at life through your eyes. Maybe look at what your saying starting with calling yourself a Reverend to be very flawed thinking. It is a label that keeps you from seeing anything else.
It is the gerundive of the verb revereri (to respect) which may be taken as a gerundive or a passive periphrastic, therefore meaning [one who is] to be respected/must be respected. The Reverend is therefore equivalent to The Hono(u)rable or The Venerable.
Honestly, although you would think of yourself as being honest and open, your not. I have given you some pretty good reasoning behind my statements and while you think I should read what you write and I have, you really don't believe I have a right to state another and different point of view and when I do, you just toss it aside, which is a certain sign of
arrogance - overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors
"In the meantime, my time posting to you has come to an end. I'm weary of wasting my time with you. You have been dismissed." REV if that is not arrogance, I will repent. You even calling yourself a REVEREND is a prime example of that arrogance.
What are you going to do if Jesus decides that He will toss you aside as you have tossed me aside? With all of your biblical knowledge, how is it that you cannot understand that what you do to me, you do to God Himself? I know, I know, you can do what you want and still be Reverend Christian that is once saved always saved no matter what you do. That really is sad.
Dear Rev. Anthony R. Watson, AMECHI GODSON, Dr Sarah Carrol, I believe the greatest lesson Jesus came to teach us was love and compassion one for one another. And through love we as children of God ought to gather souls into the kingdom. However, after seeing the way you guys relate to each other if I was a sinner I might think twice. Guys we who are called by God and set apart ought to be able to have a civilised discussion without mud slinging, if any of you truly believe in the name that is above all name then I suggest you consider what has come out of your mouth, pen because what has come out in thoughts and deeds comes from the heart and it is therefore the thing that will truly defile you not the thing that has gone in but what comes out. Therefore I suggest unless you consider yourselves to be as the pharsees and saducees thinking you are more important and better than anyone else that you reread what you have all written in regards to the name calling ,putting down and derogative treatment of each and duly ask for forgiveness. The most important thing that each of you are to know is God created us in His own image and in His sight all are precious therefore calling one of God's creation stinking because you disagree is really not acceptable for someone who possesses the light, undermining another by making them feel inferior is unacceptable because man was created in the likeness of God and in His sight we are precious.
You know I am assuming that we are all adult here and the fact that there are titles in front of your names this should mean that you are no longer babes desiring milk but have become fully pledge mature students place in a position of authority responsible for the shepharding of Gods people therefore needing more than all to set an example.
Now this discussion as with any that I set is done in order to help each one of us grow in our walk with Christ because it ought to make us look and consider the way in which we who pertain to be the beacon conduct ourselves in our walk in order to draw others to Christ.
Until the return of Christ none of us is perfect and will not be perfected without Him but that does not mean we cannot strive for perfection which is best done by showing due regard and love one for another.
Brothers and Sisters you do not have to insult each other to get your point across only satan need to do that , children of /God only need to show there light.
Stay bless and please if you intent to continue with this discussion pray first before you make your responses.