Thoughts on these lost books of the bible that are being sold.

[Rachid]

 

 

Is this biblical. For me it is a very cautoius topic. I thought we were not to add anything to the word nor take anything away, I thought the Bible was put together as it should have and was intended for 66 books and nothing else. Is this wrong? I know there is soooooo much that we dont know but this is a touchy topic. Any thoughts.

[James Pierce]

It was the Catholic Church that compiled our canon, and THEY determined what was supposed to be there. In my opinion, the canon is NEVER closed. I have the apocryha, and they have yet to contradict the law, or the Prophets. The RCC is not the final authority on what belongs, and what does not belong. So, make the decision for yourself by actually reading the so called "lost books."

Shalom

[Joseph Gill]

There are some doctrines found in the Apocrypha that plainly contradict the Holy Scriptures.


DEPRAVITY OF HUMAN NATURE
For I was a witty child, and had a good spirit. Yea rather, being good, I came into a body undefiled. [Wisdom 8:19,20]

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. [Psalm 51:5]


ATONEMENT FOR SINS
Water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sins [Sirach 3:30]; For alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin. Those that exercise alms and righteousness shall be filled with life… [Tobit 12:9]

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul [Leviticus 17:11];


REMITTING THE SINS OF THE DEAD
Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin. [2 Maccabees 12:45]

Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? [Ezekiel 33:10]

[James Pierce]

Joseph,

I have all those books.

Wisdom: I read the verse in my LXX, and in context, it's not referring to coming to a body without sin. One who is defiled only means when they have the knowledge of this wrong. A baby cannot enter a body knowing sin to even be defiled. Sin is the transgression of the law. The Hebrew word is chuwl, and its in the Pulal stem, and it can mean "be brought forth." He was brought forth in iniquity. But, for the sake of debating, let's stick with "shapen." Even in the case of being shapen in iniquity, if he has no knowledge of the law, then how can a baby be defiled by sin? Conclusion, no between your presented verses.

Sirach: I looked at this verse. This book was translated in Greek, and so, in connection with the NT, when "charity" is usually used, the Greek word "Agape" is used. You know that agape means "love." 1 Peter 4:8."And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins." The hebrew for "atone" is Kaphar." It means to cover. Love indeed covers sins. An example is: Someone you love does something against you. YOUR love looks over that sin, thus that love atones for that sin. Conclusion. no contradiction between your presented verses.

Tobit: I read this verse in two versions of the LXX manuscripts. The word almsgiving refers to mercy, pity, and it can also mean charity--- giving to the poor. But tobit says that almsgiving takes away sin. This can take the same meaning as my above exegesis. When you have mercy on someone who has done wrong to you, and you have mercy on them, then you're looking over their sin. Their sins were purged because of your mercy. This is the basics of this verse. Conclusion, no contradiction between your presented verses

Maccebees: I read this in context, and it seems that Judah Macc was hoping for a resurrection of the men that had fallen. He wanted to atone for this sin via a sin offering. Just because Judah did this, does not mean that it contradict Ezekiel. In the Torah, you could only atone for them that were alive. But, here is the catch, these men lived BEFORE Messiah came. So, if these men were obedient to God, and the Torah, then of course, they would rise from the dead. This is not a contradiction at all. David committed adultery, and ate the shewbread. Both of them were sin. Do they contradict Torah? Yes! Because those acts violate the torah. Conclusion, no contradiction between your presented verses.

Shalom

[Joseph Gill]

James,

It is difficult for me to tell what Wisdom 8:20 is saying if "it's not referring to coming to a body without sin." The speaker could have meant "I came into a body without having transgressed the Mosaic Law." but that would be so obvious an observation it would be insipid. Of course, it would be helpful to know what Greek word is being translated "undefiled" in the verse, but I cannot find an online lexicon for the Septuagint. In any case, I believe the Psalm 51:5 specifically refers to the stain of original sin on humankind, but I know that a Jewish mindset struggles against the doctrine of original sin. On that topic I doubt we will ever agree.

Regarding the passages in Sirach and Tobit, it again would be helpful to have a lexicon. If the word that is translated "alms" is ἐλεημοσύνη [eleémosuné], then you have made a mistake paralleling it to the English word "charity." In 1611, at the writing of the KJV, "charity" was the Anglicized version of the Latin caritas, and it simply meant "love" or "affection"; there was no direct connection between "alms" and "charity" in the earliest English bibles. Over the centuries the word's meaning changed to "show of mercy" (particularly through generous giving). You would only be right if the word translated "alms" is actually agape in the Greek Septuagint. In that case, I have been fooled by a very poor translation choice.

What you write about the Maccabees passage makes no sense. Ezekiel is clear that if a formerly righteous person commits sin and dies, he dies in his sin. This is what the battle dead in 2 Maccabees 12 appear to have done... they died in idolatry. The notion that prayers could be offered after their deaths to expunge their guilt is ludicrous as well as unbiblical. There is no comparison with David, who repented of his sin and was forgiven by God.

[Rachid]

@ James Pierce - I dont know anything about the apocryhra. I have researched a bit further out in reference to the beginning of time and the space of time inbetween Satans reveolt and God fixing the earth back in place and putting man here. It was all very interesting. It was not contridicting scripture or anything. For that I am glad. I am seeking deeper. I tell you one thing, I pray and annoint myself and really be lead about in looking information. I only want the truth. So far I feel enloghtened and I keep my bible close to reference scripture to support whatever I am reading and as long as it aint contridicting we all good.

[James Pierce]

Rachid,

Yeah. In my opinion, the biblical canon is not closed. The RCC closed it, but who are they to do such?

[newview]

Well - most people dont follow or even believe in the Canonized 66 books - why do they need more to ignore?

[Joseph Gill]

Trevor T. Greene in another thread: The 400 years of silence were anything but silent years. Just because the books of Maccabees were ignored and considered non-inspired and non-canonical, doesn't mean that such an assumption is true. The Jews who deemed it such were also the same Jews who celebrated the holiday Hanukkah, created during the time of the Maccabees. Before you claim anything different, take note that JESUS Himself respected the Feast as well (John 10). If one says that they are not inspired by GOD, then that speaks volumes about Christ's moves to worship on the Feast day. If one says that the books are not inspired, the same can easily be said of Esther, for her book falls into the same category. Its truly interesting to know that her book doesn't even contain the name of GOD....not even once!

There is more to being inspired than accurately describing the historical details of the institution of the Feast of Dedication. If the books are inspired, then we must also accept their doctrinal teachings (like prayer for the dead).

Besides, the historical fact that Jesus celebrated the Feast of Dedication (if we can really infer that from John 10:22,23) says almost nothing about II Maccabees specifically. I guess we could say that if we see Jesus celebrating Chanukah c. 33 A.D., there is no contradiction of II Maccabees dating of the institution of the holiday (139 B.C.).

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

What a way to call a brother out!!! LOL!! OK , here we go:

You comments here also tie in with your comment in the beginning towards James, and I was itching to answer them! Thank you for opening that window! Allow me to cover some of the gray areas of doctrine for you:

1) "REMITTING THE SINS OF THE DEAD
Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin. [2 Maccabees 12:45]

Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? [Ezekiel 33:10]"

QUESTION: Have you ever noticed what apostle Paul spoke of in 1st Corinthians 15:29? Lets see what he said:

"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

I'm not one that practices this, but by his mentioning, it is clear that some form of "prayers/remission for the dead" was practiced by the Jews and Christians of that day. Any thoughts?


2) "ATONEMENT FOR SINS
Water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sins [Sirach 3:30]; For alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin. Those that exercise alms and righteousness shall be filled with life… [Tobit 12:9]

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul [Leviticus 17:11];"

By quoting and sticking to Leviticus, you ignore certain words made by the Apostles.

James 2:14-26 "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

(Martin Luther tried to have the book of James expelled from the Bible because of this teaching, for he felt it contradicted Apostle Paul.)

Mark 10:28-31 "Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, but he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last first."

Acts 10:1-6 "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do."

Faith is not just a head-knowledge, but true faith is an action demonstrated. If you think your righteousness and your alms have little to do with the Kingdom of GOD, think again. It is the blood of JESUS that remits sin, but that does not stop you from being required to do righteous works for the Kingdom. A truly saved person is a worker of righteousness.


3) "DEPRAVITY OF HUMAN NATURE
For I was a witty child, and had a good spirit. Yea rather, being good, I came into a body undefiled. [Wisdom 8:19,20]

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. [Psalm 51:5]"

I see the words within Wisdom 8:19-20 as being a prophetic word that points towards the LORD JESUS Himself, for this describes him to the tee! Not all prophetic words within the OT spoke directly of Messiah, but indirect and descriptively. This in my "mind-of-Christ, Holy-Spirit-filled-opinion" is one example of that.

[Joseph Gill]

You comments here also tie in with your comment in the beginning towards James, and I was itching to answer them! Thank you for opening that window!

Don't be silly; you don't need an invite to contribute... your comments are always welcome.


Have you ever noticed what apostle Paul spoke of in 1st Corinthians 15:29? Lets see what he said:

"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

I'm not one that practices this, but by his mentioning, it is clear that some form of "prayers/remission for the dead" was practiced by the Jews and Christians of that day. Any thoughts?

I've never noticed that before, and surely never heard anyone teach on it. I had to look it up on the internet: an interesting proposition appeared on a Christian apologetics site (http://www.carm.org/baptism-for-the-dead-in-1-corinthians-15-29), but I have to study it out more. But, I will admit that a normative practice like Christian baptisms for the dead would make me rethink that whole doctrine. I will look a little at some of the first and second century rituals recorded by the church patriarchs.


[Regarding atonement for sins:] By quoting and sticking to Leviticus, you ignore certain words made by the Apostles

My correspondent James fairly restricted me to Old Testament examples of contradiction with the Apocrypha (he wrote: "I have the [apocrypha], and they have yet to contradict the law, or the prophets"). But in no way did I mean to diminish the importance of alms-giving in the sight of God, or to claim that it isn't to be expected in a believer's life. I hold as truth, as Paul said, that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds, among them alms-giving. But what the passages in Tobit and Sirach assert is that giving alms is the atonement, and that is false doctrine.


I see the words within Wisdom 8:19-20 as being a prophetic word that points towards the LORD JESUS Himself, for this describes him to the tee! Not all prophetic words within the OT spoke directly of Messiah, but indirect and descriptively. This in my "mind-of-Christ, Holy-Spirit-filled-opinion" is one example of that.

Hmmm.... that is very interesting. Can't dismiss it out-of-hand. I'll have to reread the passage in the Book of Wisdom.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

"I've never noticed that before, and surely never heard anyone teach on it. I had to look it up on the internet: an interesting proposition appeared on a Christian apologetics site (http://www.carm.org/baptism-for-the-dead-in-1-corinthians-15-29), but I have to study it out more. But, I will admit that a normative practice like Christian baptisms for the dead would make me rethink that whole doctrine. I will look a little at some of the first and second century rituals recorded by the church patriarchs."

I never heard anyone teach on that either, at least not from the pulpit. Those who even dare deal with it are deemed a heretic.


"My correspondent James fairly restricted me to Old Testament examples of contradiction with the Apocrypha (he wrote: "I have the [apocrypha], and they have yet to contradict the law, or the prophets"). But in no way did I mean to diminish the importance of alms-giving in the sight of God, or to claim that it isn't to be expected in a believer's life. I hold as truth, as Paul said, that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds, among them alms-giving. But what the passages in Tobit and Sirach assert is that giving alms is the atonement, and that is false doctrine."

Technically speaking, before Christ was born, that WAS for atonement of sin, for sins were 9-outta-10 times committed against another person. Take Zacchaeus for example (Luke 19). Remember, JESUS wasn't even born when these books were written. You have to come from an OT angle, and not the NT, for giving alms is apart of atoning for sin.

[Joseph Gill]

I strongly disagree. The atonement was always in blood: before Christ came, His death was prefigured by the substitutionary death of animals. Atonement is the clear purpose of Mosaic laws regarding sacrifice. And the teaching seems to predate Moses: it is the implied reason behind God's preference for Abel's offering over Cain's. Can anyone offer a single example in the Hebrew Scriptures where giving alms atoned for the sins of the giver?