Water Baptism does not save..

[Preacher]

for those who believe water baptism is required for salvation why the thief on the cross did not need to be baptized to be saved. A common reply to that question is: “The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant.” So, in essence, the same people who say the thief did not need to be baptized because he was “under the Old Covenant” will use John 3:5 as “proof” that baptism is necessary for salvation. They insist that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he too was under the Old Covenant. If the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized (because he was under the Old Covenant), why would Jesus tell Nicodemus (who was also under the Old Covenant) that he needed to be baptized?
the only baptism that washes away sin and brings salvation is that of the holy spirit..

When we are born again we are washed by the holy spirit, the word baptism means to (wash) at the very moment one becomes born again, they are washed and made sinless,the bible says,

1 Corinthians 6
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice verse 11 says we are washed by the spirit of God! not by water, the water is just an outward showing of whats going on spiritually,the water it self, has no power to wash away sins,we baptize out of obedience as did Christ,not that Christ had any sins of his own to have washed away, but in keeping things in order.

Mathew 3:1-13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

we obey once we become saved, its salvation and our new nature that causes us to want to obey God,not the other way around,so we see and understand that water baptism doesn't save, but being baptized with the holy spirit washes away sins,and brings salvation.

God Bless

[newview]

Preacher,
Have you been baptized in water as the believers were in the NT?

[A.W. Bowman]

Hmmmm Interesting question there newview.

I know that the question was not directed to me, but it did give me pause to think - a very dangerous pastime of mine.

The scriptures clearly states that there is only one baptism, along with one faith, one God, etc. However, in our modern day church we mandate two baptisms, one in the water and one in the Spirit. I have under gone both.

Now, for your question, "Have you been baptized in water as the believers were in the NT?" To that question I would have to answer , No. Why? Because I know of no western Church that baptizes according to the traditional Hebrew ritual that Jesus, His disciples or those added to the church undertook. Even so, I don't think it is necessary for me to be re-baptized in either the water or the Spirit in order to make my 'conversion' complete.

[newview]

Are apostolic, Bro Bowman?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

May I jump into this matter, because thats just as dangerous a pastime of mine as well........

True, I totally agree with your point Dr. Bowman. We the Church have caused water baptism to be a requirement for salvation, when in fact the Bible presents it as a typology of the true baptism that saves:

Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

Acts 1:5 "for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

This is from the mouths of Prophet John the Baptist, and CHRIST JESUS Himself. Water baptism did nothing for the believers because it was not the promise. The promise was the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT. I agree Dr., that in our modern day church we mandate two baptisms, one in the water and one in the Spirit. I will even site our Creeds that claim such but practice two baptisms.

Therefore, I present the question that I have presented once before: which one truly saves and which one matters the most, the water baptism, or the Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT? Grab your Bibles and read. Let go of your traditional Church doctrines, and simply READ the Bible, for it as clear as day.

1st Corinthians 1:14-17 "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

[newview]

Why do you guys keeping pushing the saints to believe they dont have to bother with being baptized in water?

Especially YOU, Bro Bowman...

You guys are going to be judged on this. Thats sad. :-(

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Are you going to answer the question, or properly respond to the statement, or pronounce judgment? Take your pick, because this simple conversation can turn complicated instantly with a dash of ignorance.

[newview]

Trevor,
I didnt know you asked me a question - what is it?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Reread my post. The entire thing was a comment/question for you to respond to.

[Preacher]

Is water baptism in any way a condition for salvation? This question is very valid because Mark 16:16 teaches:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned..

And in Acts 2:38, God declares:
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We read in John 3:5:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

There appears to be plenty of evidence that water baptism must be experienced as part of the salvation process.
But water baptism is a work that we do. And the Bible warns that salvation is solely the work of God. Ephesians 2:8-10:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


There is One Baptism
The solution to the question comes when we go back to first principles. The Bible insists that there is one baptism (Ephesians 4:5). How are we to understand this?
We can understand this when we realize that there can be something that is substantive and actual, but it also may cast a shadow. Earlier we used the analogy of a tree. A tree is substantive and actual. A tree may cast a shadow that is altogether identified with the tree but has no substance at all in itself. So, too, the baptism (washing away of sins) performed by God is substantive and


actual. But water baptism is only a shadow of the action performed by God. Water baptism is identified with baptism (washing) with the Spirit so that there is one baptism. Water baptism is the shadow so it has no substance in itself.
we learned that the ceremonial washings of the Old Testament were shadows of the washing away of sins that would be accomplished by the coming Messiah. So, too, the baptism with water is a shadow of the washing away of our sins which is accomplished by Christ's payment for our sins. The shadow, water baptism, is, therefore, a sign that points to the washing away of the sins of the one who became saved; or it points to the hope that some time in the future the individual baptized may become saved. There is no substance in the act of water baptism. Water baptism is a ceremonial command of the New Testament church age.

But water baptism is the shadow so it has no substance in itself.
Therefore, when the New Testament uses the word "baptism" it ordinarily must be understood to mean the act of God washing away our sins. Thus, Mark 16:16 is declaring that there are two conditions which give evidence of salvation: God has given us a faith whereby we have come to trust God as our Lord and Savior; and our sins have been washed away; that is, we have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.
An interesting usage of the word "baptism" is found in I Peter 3:21, where the Bible records:
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Actually, the baptism that is in view must be spiritual baptism because we know that water baptism can never save. This verse is explaining that spiritual baptism does not put away the filth of the
flesh, as the shadow water baptism does. Rather, it gives us the answer of a good conscience toward God; that is, our conscience can no longer accuse us of being under the wrath of God because our sins have been washed away. The proof of this washing away of our sins is that Christ was resurrected which in turn proves that He had fully paid for the sins of those whose sins were washed away.

Likewise, Acts 2:38 indicates that we are to repent and be baptized. Repentance is a gift of God (Acts 5:31, "Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins"). Baptism for the remission of our sins is God's act as He baptizes us with the Holy Spirit; that is, He cleanses us of our sins.
In John 3, Jesus declares that we are to be born again (the better translation is "born from above"). He states that we are to be born of water and the Spirit. The water cannot be a reference to the physical water of baptism since there is no salvation substance in that act. The Bible shows us that it is the water of the Gospel. Jesus told the Samaritan woman in John 4:14:
But whosoever drinketh the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.



GB

[newview]

"...Likewise, Acts 2:38 indicates that we are to repent and be baptized. Repentance is a gift of God..."

So we dont have to Repent and we dont have to get baptized in water these days, Preacher?

Then why did the Apostle Peter tell those at Jerusalem who after they heard and believed the gospel - tell them to do the following for the REMISSION of their SINS ----> REPENT and Be BAPTIZED?

Why is it that if someone were to hear you tell them the good news of Jesus Christ would you not respond just like Peter?
If someone heard you preach the gospel and they believed in their heart that Jesus died for their sins - what would you tell them if they said:
"Wow - I totally believe this gospel that you have shared, what am I to do to be saved ?"...
What would you say to them since they already believe?
Also what would you say to them if they asked you if you have been baptized in water?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

To base your entire doctrine on Acts 2, a time period considered "the infancy of the Church and the revelations of the Church" is actually a bad move, Newview. Consider this:

- at the time, Peter and the rest of the Apostles only considered certain requirements for an Apostle. If those requirements were to stand as the essentials, then Paul, James, and the other new Apostles would be disqualified from their office, and their writings would be worth toilet paper. Is this the doctrine that your salvation is built upon as well?

- at the time of Acts 2, they didn't think that Gentiles could receive the HOLY SPIRIT. In fact, they didn't even preach to Gentiles and still considered them too unclean to preach to! Is this the doctrine that your salvation is built upon as well?

There was a great theme song that is also a true theme of life: "you take the good, you take the bad, you take them both, and there you have the facts of life". You can't eliminate these two things I mentioned concerning Acts 2 but keep your doctrine simply because it sounds good and your Church taught that for generations.

Now, consider this: NO verse in any Epistle of the New Testament mentions or even considers water baptism as requirement for salvation. NONE!! On the contrary, the epistles do speak of a few things that are required:

- faith
- the Gospel
- the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT
- obeying GOD's decrees

Did JESUS say baptizing them in water, or in the HOLY SPIRIT?

[Preacher]

I'll explaIn once more this is the order of salvation first God chose all who would become born again before he created the universe...before man was created...he elected certain people to become saved...
then when that person hears the gospel God applies the word to his heart and give that person a new nature he is now born again...then out of his new nature to obey God he gets baptized as a show of identifying with Christ death burrial and ressurection...the sin was washed away by the holy spirit the moment that person became born again...the water had nothing to do with it...
GB