Water baptism does not save.

[Preacher]

for those who believe water baptism is required for salvation why the thief on the cross did not need to be baptized to be saved. A common reply to that question is: “The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant.” So, in essence, the same people who say the thief did not need to be baptized because he was “under the Old Covenant” will use John 3:5 as “proof” that baptism is necessary for salvation. They insist that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he too was under the Old Covenant. If the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized (because he was under the Old Covenant), why would Jesus tell Nicodemus (who was also under the Old Covenant) that he needed to be baptized?
the only baptism that washes away sin and brings salvation is that of the holy spirit..

When we are born again we are washed by the holy spirit, the word baptism means to (wash) at the very moment one becomes born again, they are washed and made sinless,the bible says,

1 Corinthians 6

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice verse 11 says we are washed by the spirit of God! not by water, the water is just an outward showing of whats going on spiritually,the water it self, has no power to wash away sins,we baptize out of obedience as did Christ,not that Christ had any sins of his own to have washed away, but in keeping things in order.

Mathew 3:1-13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

we obey once we become saved, its salvation and our new nature that causes us to want to obey God,not the other way around,so we see and understand that water baptism doesn't save, but being baptized with the holy spirit washes away sins,and brings salvation.

God Bless

[newview]

Bro Trevor, I read it.
From what I read - you were trying explain and convince me that water baptism is not very important and even 'milk-ish' as it relates to having ones sins remitted - although we both know what the holy apostle said about that :-)

I understand that Jesus has perfectly and absolutely handled and squashed sin on the cross - but once a sinner hears and believes the gospel - the correct response of the sinner is found in Peter's instruction ---> the sinner is to 1) repent and 2) be baptized.

[ShekinahLife]

Mr Green writes:"You really didn't read what I posted did you?"

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I might bring your attention back to an earlier post in which I asked "May I Help...Mr. Green if you did read that and then looked up the historical truths surrounding the events..i am sure we would be on the same plate...
And further Mr Green~No, the intent was to get you a learned man..to go and seek that which was lost..go check your blood linage! then we can go from there...


Yeminite is one of the purest forms of Judaism (I think anyway) on the planet...along with the recent discovery of a tribe in India still observing the ancient rulings...but it is all up to you it is all a heart matter...unless the Master draw you.....

[ShekinahLife]

Why did Peter tell those people to baptized when it was not necessary?

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Because the Mikveh is part of Teshuvah..Baptism is SELF_Emersion..(unless the person is possul /in-valid) not as the common church teaches...or the Christian texts teach, gee I wonder why??????? could it be more of Romes Anti-semitic stance????? Ah just more misconstruction I suppose...may the Shekinah bring forth wisdom.
Baruach HaShem

[newview]

"...Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:..."

Well according to the 'Chrisitan text' that really has done quite well in explaining the gospel and correcting and exhorting the saints for hundreds and hundred of years - in their walk with the Lord - it says that Jesus commanded them to TEACH and BAPTIZE people.

And if for hundreds and hundreds of years the correct way of being baptized was to SELFBaptize - then fine - but there are too many scriptures that point to people that seek/sought salvation to do/did a few things:
Believed
Repented
Were Baptized (maybe they got in the water themselves and spoke the words or a minister)

People throughout the bible were baptized before and even after receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And if the goal is to be saved and you have already received the Holy Ghost - Why command to be baptized in water ?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

1) JESUS did say to baptize them, but was the Prophet's words that HE would baptize them with water, or with the HOLY SPIRIT?

2) The scriptures are neither Jewish nor Christian. They are the words of Almighty GOD. Both names are merely names placed on people's ideas. They mean well, but truth be told, they have the same origin and the same ending.

[ShekinahLife]

Mr Green writes:"The scriptures are neither Jewish nor Christian."/i>hr/>Mr Green would you like to reconsider this statement?

The TaNaKh being Jewish is the five books given by the the Master creator to the honorable Moshie who in turn gave them for the most part to the Hebrew nation and the gentiles who as well were in the wilderness with them. is that correct.?

And you write:"They are the words of Almighty GOD. ~~I agree with you Mr Green,...those are and will always be the Main Instruction(s) for the Bride Israel to go and make her-self ready.

Everything has it's origin in the Adam Qadmon the blueprint for all humanity...that my BPN neighbor is an absolute and that is the Aleph and Tav


or beginning to be compiled between (Rounded off) 300CE to 1300 and what have we??...fabrifications..embellishments that Rome does not deny!!! ( I have checked and placed some questionable statements on this thread from them~~Does anybody care...Nope) let alone misconstructions....and misteachings because of cultural dufferences ...and well you get the point ,...it has a few issues further back than Wescott and Hort's poor kjv~ interpolations in 1841

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

The reason why I sad that the scriptures are neither Jewish nor Christian is simple and blunt: an impostor and an idiot lays claim to what is not his. Joel Olsteen teaches people to say "This is my Bible....", and that sounds good because you are taught to cling to the Word of GOD. But no culture, man, religion, or ideology can ever lay exclusive claim to the Holy Scriptures:

-if Israel would, they would be guilty because they rejected the Messiah, the very Author and Finisher of their faith
-if Christians did, they would be in error because we don't get it all. There are parts that we don't fully understand, and that is evident by the different denominations

The fact of the matter is that GOD inspired it, therefor it was, is, and always will be exclusively GOD's scriptures. Any other name for it is shortchanging it.

[ShekinahLife]

Mr. Green writes:"-if Israel would, they would be guilty because they rejected the Messiah, the very Author and Finisher of their faith"

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No. I beg to differ,... they ~we~are very well aware of the concept of the Messiah...why ? Because it exclusively belongs to the rabbinic and hasidic theology of Israel...so to learn what a Jewish understanding of Messiah is..I suggest you ask a Rabbi in your local area. I must warn you that an orthodox Rabbi will turn you away perhaps three times as is the custom to see if you are real...but getting past that point therin is your answer to who and what the real teaching of a Messiah~ who he is, what he will do, [Like restore the bet HaMakdash~] Etc

You really should get a copy of Joseph Klausner's book 'Jesus of Nazareth'..IMHO a nice compilation of teachings and historical facts you might like to add to your library.

PS that swing at Joel O is a direct miss for us in Isa 58:v9 we need to stop pointing them fingers if we want Moshiach to come


Right?


Shhhhh nobody but G-d will read thisBut Joel O is a little off now, isn't he LOL

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

(Leave Joel O alone, he aint that bad! LOL)

Now, you need not speak to me about what an Orthodox Rabbi would do with me, for I have had MUCH experience with both Orthodox and Messianic Rabbis (interesting fellows!). Speaking with most Orthodox Rabbis was quite frustrating for them considering the fact that many of them did not even care about the Messiah as much as they claimed anymore. I say that because I pretty much knew more about Him and His coming than they did. Scriptures they ignored and/or overlooked proved to tie them in knots. I wont say I ran circles around all of them, but I truthfully say to you that I held extensive conversations with them on the matter. Interestingly enough, the ones that weren't rude had a glimmer in their eye that said "Hmmm, maybe this Gentile kid showed me something I missed" even though they clung to their traditions.

To say that the concept of Messiah belongs exclusively to the Rabbinic and Hasidic theology of Israel is actually blind and ignorant to the fact that YHWH is the GOD of all creation and nations whether they know/acknowledge it or not. Take the Magi that came to meet the baby JESUS for example. These Sages were not Hebrew at all. In fact, they were pagan Prophets & Astrologers who were familiar with Hebrew scriptures (from Daniel the Prophet's influence over Babylon & Media-Persia), and familiar with other Prophetic utterance s from (surprisingly for many) other Prophets who did not even respect the faith of Israel yet could not help but utter prophecies concerning the coming of a King direct from GOD Himself to the world.

This is something you'll have to lift your nose out of the Torah, Naviim, & Ketuvim for a sec to understand.

[Preacher]

1 Corinthians 6

but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[ShekinahLife]

Mr. Green writes:"
(a)To even speak about water baptism is to speak about its true purpose, and that was the prophetic symbol of the coming baptism of the HOLY GHOST."


(b)So the question still stands: which made the difference in your life and soul, the water baptism, or the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT?

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Sir,... Number (a) is Not true whatsoever, no streatch of the imagination can make this work out Only to the unlearned. A water Mikveh is self-immersion it is all about HaShem..it is the immersion of Torah life, deep calleth unto deep stuff.
It has nothing to do with Xian symbolism.

(b) G-d made himself REAL...and showed me that the 'church' was not of him and sent me out to heal and feed the people......

Also Never has the Jewish sages taught that the Soul was anything but PURE, it is the Yetzer harah of mankind that has some issues to work out..like EGO..being a major stumbling block for most folks.

Anybody read Isaiah 58 lately? fillled with what to do and what we shouldn't do to one another.