Women Bishop

[Yolanda Burton]

Can someone please show me in the Bible where this is permitted and explain the text?
Truly, I have been inspired by all of the comments and insight that have come from many of you!! I wanted to open a discussion that would stir the hearts and minds of many and I did. I can see that it is man vs woman and should not be. My question still remains,,,about Women Bishops!!!! The Bible does not co-sign this. I really believe we all are hung on titles. Whatever you do,,,do it all in the name of Jesus. I wanted to make some points and say some things, so that it would stir your knowledge up and cause you to proclaim what you believe. I can say,,,I have walked into many churches,,,and without sayiing a word or opening my mouth,,,,how can these men detect, discern, or sense that God has a call on my life. AND,,,WHAT, call is that? Glory be to God,,,you see many of us should make sure that our scripture references that we are using to back up your point,,,is not contextual customed to fit in your box of beliefs. My statement to this was about,,,women Bishops,,,and I for one don't agree with the TITLE,,,but I believe that a woman can teach the Gospel,,,and if the HOOP is naturally in her when she delievers,,,then hoop. Whether you want to call it style,,,whatever,,,,we all have our style. So,,if I come to some of your churches,,,I can get turned off by even the way some you hoop or TEACH. Everyone is voicing their beliefs. This is a very sensitive topic,,,and women we must make sure we are wise virtuous women,,,one thing is for sure,,,we are MASTERs at multitasking. If God,,,called you to Sunday School, Evangelist,Prophet, then you must remain a help at home. Men,,,i believe if your wife works, has to take care of kids,,,and does servant service to her local Ministry,,,it just WONT kill you to assist her at home. This is one statement that needs constant understanding and research. Our prayer should be that the LORD will enlighten and reveal to us his truth,,,NOT YOUR OPINION or CONVINCING. You see,,he that wins a soul is wise. We must make sure we ALL speak wisely. God Bless You All And thanks for the replies and the most of all THE WORD!!

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Good ?estion....

[James Pierce]

AliYah,

Yes mam.

[James Pierce]

AliYah,

What I meant was that Yah's favor in the sense of her being a prophetess

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Germain:

The Greek word "diakonos", used to describe Phoebe in Romans 16:1, is the masculine form of the noun. Therefore, the word should be translated into English as "deacon" rather than deaconess. Phoebe was a deacon of the church in Cenchrae, according to a strict translation of Romans 16:1. While the word "diakonos" is translated in other portions of the New Testament as servant, it is also translated as deacon in still other passages. The Today's New International Version of the New Testament rightly translates "diakonos" as "Deacon". This is the EXACT word used by Paul in the letter to Timothy. Lets not try to cheapen her position simply because because she was a female. You are a hypocrite for that, and GOD will hold you accountable for such.

[N'ZI Amani Germain]

Brother Trevor,

WAS PHOEBE REALLY A DEACON?

I'm not a hypocrite for that.

When I use one of my French Bibles, this is what is written "Je vous recommande Phoebé, notre soeur, qui est diaconesse de l'Église de Cenchrées"

Romains 16:1 (Louis Segond)

It is written that our sister Phoebe was a DEACON.

But, when I use the King James Version, it is written that Phebe our sister, was a SERVANT.

"I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:"

Romans 16:1 (King James Version)

When I use the Darby Translation, it is written that Phoebe, our sister, was a MINISTER.

"But I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, who is minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea";

Romans 16:1 (Darby Translation)

And so on...

According to you, which version should I choose?

Indeed, I used to take quotations from my french bible (Louis Segond version) during my studies, but I've come to the conclusion that it is high time I changed my comprehension of the role of Phoebe as expressed in this Bible (DEACON) because it does not line up with the definition given by the Bible of that ministry.

Let us see it:

“ 8Ministers, in like manner, grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not seeking gain by base means, 9holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10And let these be first proved, then let them minister, being without charge [against them].
11[The] women in like manner grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12Let [the] ministers be husbands of one wife, conducting [their] children and their own houses well: 13for those who shall have ministered well obtain for themselves a good degree, and much boldness in faith which [is] in Christ Jesus.”

1 Timothy 3:8-13 (Darby Translation)

As we see, a Minister should be a Man according to the verses 8, 9 and 10.

The instructions concerning women can be seen only at the verse 11:

"11[The] women in like manner grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things".

According to the verses 11, 12 and 13, the Ministers (the Deacons according to my French Bible, Louis Second) should be "husbands of one wife, conducting [their] children and their own houses well: 13for those who shall have ministered well obtain for themselves a good degree, and much boldness in faith which [is] in Christ Jesus”

So Phoebe, could nener be a Deacon or a Minister in the sense equivalent to that of the Men.

Do you agree with me?

Blessings,

Bro. Germain

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

I disagree with you on several points:

-You are looking at different translations of the same word. Be it servant, Ministers, Deacon, they all came from the SAME Greek word. A Deacon by definition IS a Ministers, which by definition IS a Servant. The same word used in Timothy is the same word used in Romans. How can you be confused with that?

-In the epistle to Timothy, there was no indication of a lower rank for females whatsoever. That indication comes from personal view, and not actually reading it. Phoebe passed all the qualifications for a Deacon accept for the one you placed: gender. Ministry is not a men's club, or a women tea luncheon.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Evidence from the early 2nd century, within a letter from Pliny of Bithynia to the emperor Trajan, attests to the role of the deaconesses. Pliny refers to “two maid-servants” as deaconesses whom he tortures to find out more about the Christians. This reinforces the existence the office of the deaconesses in parts of the eastern Roman Empire. In addition, within the "Didascalia of the Apostles", further mention of the female deacons is found. Within the book, there are claims that Mary Magdalene was indeed a deaconess who also served Jesus Christ. The word "diakonein" translated as minister, is used in the New Testament to describe Mary Magdalene, Joanna, the wife of Herod’s steward, Susanna and others that provided for Jesus, as a service group . However, it is more commonly believed that the institution of the deaconesses began in the 3rd century around the time the Didascalia was actually written . It is the first document that specifically discusses the role of the deacons and the deaconesses in the 3rd century, in the region of Syria. In it the author asks the bishop to take the deacons and deaconesses as “workers for justice”, denoting their prominent place in the church hierarchy. The office gradually developed, and was recognized by the Church and during this time period, the church ordained women deacons along with male deacons whom both acted in various leadership roles, including bishop, elder and deacon.

Later in the fourth century, the deaconesses were mentioned in the Council of Nicea in 325 which implies their clerical, ordained status. Olympias, one of the closest friends and supporters of the archbishop of Constantinople, John Chrysostom, was known as a wealthy and influential deaconess during the 5th century. Even Justinian's legislation regarding clergy at the great imperial churches of Hagia Sophia and Blachernae in the mid-sixth century included female deacons. He also included female deacons among the clergy whose numbers he regulated for the Great Church of Hagia Sophia, listing male and female deacons together, and later specifying one hundred male and forty female deacons. Furthermore, from the luminal period of the eighth century, the Barberini Codex, containing a liturgical manual, provides an ordination rite for a female deacon which is virtually identical to the male deacons' rite. The deaconesses continued to exist after the middle Byzantine period predominantly in the capital city as well as many monastic communities. Evidence of continuing liturgical and pastoral roles is provided by Constantine Porphyrogenitus' 10th century manual of ceremonies (De Ceremoniis), which refers to a special area for deaconesses in the Hagia Sophia.

Its funny how history remembers and honors the women in leadership. Even the ENEMIES of the Church could attest to the Deaconate office being held by females.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Germain, you wanted Biblical reference to her position:

Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

5And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

6And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?

7And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand.

8And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go.

9And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh."

This showed that Deborah judged ("shaphatwhich means to pronounce sentence (for or against); by implication, to vindicate or punish; by extenssion, to govern; passively, to litigate ) over Israel, and called for Barak to be a general of the army of Israel.

Judges 5:7 says "The inhabitants of the villages ceased they ceased in Israel until that I Deborah arose that I arose a mother in Israel." This does not indicate that she's just a motherly protective figure, but a leader and wise councilor of the household of Israel, with YHWH as FATHER. This leaves Barak are the figure of the Son. By revelatory standpoint, Deborah played a type of role as the HOLY SPIRIT. As Barak would not go forth without her, so we saints should not go forth into battle without the HOLY SPIRIT by our side.

Since that may be above some heads here, lets stick to the scriptures exact wording shall we, for not many understand revelation: this whole chapter was a song made by Deborah and sung by all others including Barak, her second in leadership, and leader of the army. You wanted to know the role of Barak? OK then, Barak followed her orders as judge over Israel.

[Rev. Kareem A. Christian]

As a student of the Greek/Latin & Hebrew languages it saddens me to see many taking things out of context to fit secular dogmatic... We're to take God's (Yah's ) Word and not deviate from it nor add to it... sadly many are deviating from it and adding to it... God's (Yah) Word is foolish and can't be interpreted by carnal minded people… We have many today that are ever learning but not coming to an understanding of what they learned… I’m not impressed with the seminarian’s doctrines that many have ascribed to… If you sit under error then you’re a product of that same error…

My dear sister, are you asking the question for instructions, correction, for reproof… or are you just engaging in unprofitable dialogue?
God’s (Yah) Word is applicable to those who are truly saved… If you’re truly saved… then you should seek the whole counsel of God… not just that which is suitable for yourself and question the rest when it doesn’t line up with your belief system… Paul’s instruction is a stumbling block to the learned… because it can’t be logically adhered… but it’s written in language even babes in God (Yah) can understand… sometimes you have to lay down what you think you know and become a fool to gain understanding…

I’ve studied at some of the most prestigious seminaries of this country… I’ve been subject to error, universalism, and every kind of ism there is… The question you must ask is what’s profitable and what’s waste?
The Who, What, When, Where, and Why question is part of interpreting Scripture… you have more steps in your hermeneutics and homiletics to go… that’s like getting the ingredients together for a cake, mixing it in a bowl and saying the cake is ready for consumption…

Paul’s instructions is not limited to a specific time period but is applicable to us today as well… when Paul referred to Adam, that statement transcends all time… God spoke through Paul using plain language... "If a man..."... "let him be..."
Paul also sends out a warning to all of those who wants to discredit his instructions... "Whoever, then, goes against this word, goes against not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you..." That's dangerous grounds to be on...

[N'ZI Amani Germain]

Amen!

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

OK, thats sounds good and all, but in all the mentioning of what languages you studied, and what schools are good and full of error, you STILL ave not stated where you stand on the subject! Anyone can say amen to your words simply because they are not clear as to what you are opposing pertaining to this particular subject.

[N'ZI Amani Germain]

Brother Trevor,

WAS PHOEBE REALLY A DEACON?

I'm not a hypocrite for that.

When I use one of my French Bibles, this is what is written "Je vous recommande Phoebé, notre soeur, qui est diaconesse de l'Église de Cenchrées"

Romains 16:1 (Louis Segond)

It is written that our sister Phoebe was a DEACON.

But, when I use the King James Version, it is written that Phebe our sister, was a SERVANT.

"I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:"

Romans 16:1 (King James Version)

When I use the Darby Translation, it is written that Phoebe, our sister, was a MINISTER.

"But I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, who is minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea";

Romans 16:1 (Darby Translation)

And so on...

According to you, which version should I choose?

Indeed, I used to take quotations from my french bible (Louis Segond version) during my studies, but I've come to the conclusion that it is high time I changed my comprehension of the role of Phoebe as expressed in this Bible (DEACON) because it does not line up with the definition given by the Bible of that ministry.

Let us see it:

“ 8Ministers, in like manner, grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not seeking gain by base means, 9holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10And let these be first proved, then let them minister, being without charge [against them].
11[The] women in like manner grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12Let [the] ministers be husbands of one wife, conducting [their] children and their own houses well: 13for those who shall have ministered well obtain for themselves a good degree, and much boldness in faith which [is] in Christ Jesus.”

1 Timothy 3:8-13 (Darby Translation)

As we see, a Minister should be a Man according to the verses 8, 9 and 10.

The instructions concerning women can be seen only at the verse 11:

"11[The] women in like manner grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things".

According to the verses 12 and 13, the Ministers (the Deacons according to my French Bible, Louis Second) should be "husbands of one wife, conducting [their] children and their own houses well: 13for those who shall have ministered well obtain for themselves a good degree, and much boldness in faith which [is] in Christ Jesus”

So Phoebe, could nener be a Deacon or a Minister in the sense equivalent to that of the Men.

Do you agree with me?

Blessings,

Bro. Germain