The RAW QUESTION is...............

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Some people here believe upon "Sola Scriptura", which means "By Scriptures Only". By definition, the Bible becomes their sole authority. This sounds good, but there is a problem: if you believe in "Sola Scriptura", then you must forfeit your belief in the Charismatic gifts (tongues, prophetic utterances, laying on of hands, Apostles, Prophets, angelic visitations, ect...). This extremist doctrine developed to counter the extremist doctrine that Pope Leo X used during the days of Martin Luther.

So the RAW QUESTION is: do you believe that GOD still does the miraculous, and that HE can use you to perform it? Do you believe in a GOD that still speaks Prophetically not only through His written word, but vocally by the mouth of His servants today (NOT JUST SERMONS)?

With this question, I especially direct this towards the Baptist believers for reasons that may be obvious, but not meant to be offensive, to them..........

[Pastor Rodrick Sweet,ThM]

Here is some food for thought on the question at hand.

Unequally Yoking
A critic might say, "Aren't you unequally yoking Apostolic Scripture with Apostolic Tradition if one is inspired and the other isn't?" Not at all. Even though Apostolic Tradition is not inspired, it "is" infallible. God cannot teach error, so anything he taught the apostles is automatically infallible. Apostolic Tradition is therefore infallible. I just have to be able to isolate it.
Furthermore, 2 Cor. 6:14, the verse that talks about being unequally yoked, is talking about marriage. A critic can set up a parallel with this passage, but let's see if the marriage analogy really works. True, Apostolic Tradition is lower than Apostolic Scripture on one level. But this does not unequally yokes them. After all, a man and a woman are not unequally yoked just because the wife is lower than her husband on one level. If we are going to use this marriage analogy, let's use it all the way: Apostolic Scripture and Apostolic Tradition are married together, with Apostolic Scripture taking the lead and Apostolic Tradition filling a supportive, interpretive role, just as a man and a woman are married together, the man taking the lead and the woman filling a helpful, supportive role, explaining and interpreting the husband's will to the children when his own explanations have not made it thoroughly clear to them.
This is a doctrine Catholics call "prima Scriptura." Apostolic Scripture does have primacy over Apostolic Tradition (and the Church as well; see Vatican II, Dei Verbum 11). We look to it first and foremost because it is inspired, giving us God's ipsisima verba. But we also look to Apostolic Tradition to help us understand Apostolic Scripture, since it conveys God's ipsisima vox. As a Catholic I don't believe in sola scriptura, but I firmly believe in prima scriptura.
(c) 1996 by James Akin. All Rights Reserved.
Provided Courtesy of: Eternal Word Television Network

As I stated before this is a Roman Catholic position.

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

NOT when you are talking about faith, it's a personal position, one that either gives you hope or makes you permanently content with the way things are in your life

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Such a position is pure and true, actually, but its not Roman Catholic in origin. ALL ancient religions held the same position, or something extremely similar. In fact, the Hebrews of old held the same position. The evidence was with the reverence of the words of the Prophets:

Deuteronomy 18:15-22 "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

1 Samuel 3:20 "And all Israel from Dan even to Beersheba knew that Samuel was established to be a prophet of the LORD."

2 Chronicles 20:20 "And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper."

Amos 3-7 "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."


You would easily say this is OT, but the same respect is shown within the NT as well:

Acts 15:32 "And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them."

Romans 12:6-8 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness."

1st Corinthians 12:1-11 "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

1st Corinthians 14:29-33 "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

You say these gifts are obsolete because we have NT scripture now, but these gifts are spoken of within the NT scriptures. Are these NT scriptures obsolete now? Paul nor any other Apostle gave no indication of them ever stopping except one: the Eternal Reign of GOD our FATHER and the LORD JESUS Christ.

When Martin Luther made his statements, he spoke MAINLY on the basis of salvation. It is important to note what was going on during those days within the Roman Catholic order (I see why GOD recently instructed me to go back and study up on Martin Luther!): Pope Leo X was trying to make his solid claim on fame by remodeling St. Peter's Basillica, however the Vatican was just about bankrupt. Therefore, he instructed Cardinal to go about and "sell indulgences". Martin Luther challenged this with his famous/infamous "95 theses". After a long bout with Rome, he declared the Pope the anti-Christ, and broke away from Rome. The People also excommunicated him. The Vatican burned his books, he burned their Canon Laws openly, and so on.....

Because of this experience, Martin Luther held to certain positions when ordaining his own priests. Two most notably for this discussion are:

-Salvation by faith alone (totally agreeable)
-Sola Scriptura (not a revelation, but a prejudice due to his experiences with Roman Bishops)

It is interesting and important to note that this is the same man that, due to negative experiences, held to these other positions:

-Antisemitism
-No Bishops (also not a revelation, but a prejudice against Bishops due to his experiences with Rome)

His position as far as being a liberator and father of the Protestant Reformation actually is fully Apostolic, as is his creation of the Lutheran faith. However, he contradicts himself concerning Sola Scriptura, for he violates Jews, and he wrote both the Large & the Small Catechism. This is in direct violation of "Sola Scriptura" and moves into the authority of "Prima Scritura", for he exercised Apostolic authority.

The many Popes and Patriarchs of the Roman Catholic Church, and the Orthodox Churches were not wrong for what they believed as far as Prima Scriptura, but how they exercised their power.

[Pastor Rodrick Sweet,ThM]

That quodlibet make the Reformation foolish. I am committed to the Biblical and Christ-exalting truths of the Reformation such as the five solas, the doctrines of grace, and so on. I see that may of today's Pentecostal/Charismatic do not hold to the same mindset.

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

Sola scriptura is the teaching that the Bible is the only inspired and authoritative word of God, is the only source for Christian doctrine, and is accessible to all—that is, it is perspicuous and self-interpreting. That the Bible requires no interpretation outside of itself is an idea directly opposed to the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Coptic, Anglo-Catholic, and Roman Catholic traditions, which teach that the Bible can be authentically interpreted only by Apostolic Tradition, this being for the Roman Catholic tradition embodied in the Magisterium, (that is the teaching authority embodied in Bishops in union with the Pope). Sola scriptura is sometimes called the formal principle of the Reformation, since it is the source and norm of the material principle.

2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


Amen! and the miracles that exceed from them to individuals are according to their faith, there is a reason the statement starts out ....knowing this FIRST,

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

You truly don't understand a thing about the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement then. What I said did not make the Reformation foolish, it made certain moves that Martin Luther did foolish. Martin had no justifiable right to declare what he taught within the Lutheran Church. Had he truly been Sola Scriptura, he wouldn't have:

-written the Large & the Small Catechism
-made Anti-Semitic statements,and doctrine
-stated that he seen no reason/need for Bishops

By the scriptures? With those three, he violated his own stand. Martin Luther was an awesome man, but he was not infallible which was proven by those three main flaws in his doctrine.

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

This whole thread is about the Daughters of the Catholic Church, which is Mother of Harlots. Are you and Brother Watson, some Masons or something Brother Trevor? The way you all talk, you sound like free masons, is that true?

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

Bro.Hez,

This whole thread is about the Daughters of the Catholic Church,

Where on earth did you get this assumption out of the Sola Scriptura vs. the Prima Scriptura?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

I'd love to know as well, Chaplain

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

Did not the Protestants come out of the Catholic Church?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Yes, and your point would be....?