Polygamy... Is it scriptural, or does Yah forbid such?

[James Pierce]

What speakest thou?

[keith]

Very good essay. Your words are true.

Genesis 2:24 is not the ideal it is Father YAH will. He ordained it. We must follow his law. Anything outside of his will, is not where one should want to be.

Hopefully the polygamy believing crowd will read and hear and place the words in their heart and repent.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Repentance is for those who have committed a sin. What sin was committed? You mentioned the words of Christ out of pure error, because the fact/truth of the matter was that JESUS WAS NEVER QUESTIONED ABOUT POLYGAMY! If He said anything against it, it would have been questionable. He would then have to answer:

-"Rabbi, why then did YHWH blessed David with multiple wives?"
-"LORD, why then did the scriptures not mention Solomon being punished for his many wives, but punished for idolatry instead?"
-"Why then did YHWH not name it specifically as a sin in the Law of Moses?"
-"Why then were none of the sins that were mentioned in the Law and the Prophets even closely hinting at polygamy?"

[keith]

Trevor,

Last time I checked David is dead and the promise was for him and him alone not anyone else. Plus as I have said before the verse means Sauls kingdom and everything in it was his.

YAHshua used Ge 2:24 for his proof text of monogamy as I do.
Mat 19:5 KJV - And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

This verse tells that a marriage is one man and one woman. Anything else violates this law of marriage.

Polygamy also violates Lev 18:18 Dead Sea Scrolls (which is the oldest Torah in the world)and Lev 19:18. For if you cannot share your wife why should you subject her to sharing her husband.

Polygamists (and those who believe it is ok) violate the spirit of the Law all the time.

Would you then argue lesbianism is ok because you see no specific law against it? answer this carefully,, very carefully

Where is the Love and respect for your marriage and wife (husband)? (for those who practice it). Remember Father YAH was a witness at your marriage Mal 2:14.

Most if not all the prophets describe a a marriage between Father YAH and his only and single bride Israel.

What more do you want to ignore?

Yes any and all polygamy believing persons need to repent and correct their hearts.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

I have not ignored a thing. I have taken everything the Bible and you said into careful consideration. The problem is, you haven't done the same. You said:

"YAHshua used Ge 2:24 for his proof text of monogamy as I do.
Mat 19:5 KJV - And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?"

Was that answer that HE gave and scripture that HE quoted in response to a question on polygamy, or divorce? Be clear on that.

You say that Polygamy violated GOD's law, but you ignore these facts:

- When a sin is mentioned in the Torah, a punishment is declared for it, and sometimes a restoration process. The Torah does not state a specific punishment for polygamy, nor any restoration process.
- no man, woman was EVER recorded being punished for it
- no king was EVER recorded being rebuked for it
- if GOD blessed King David with it, then GOD Himself would be guilty of sin
- no Prophet was EVER recorded speaking against it as one of Israel's many sins

You can't just go jumping around applying anything to anything just because it culturally sounds good. You have to show scripture that applies to the situation, and there is no specific punishment or decree against it ever shown- EVER!

You boast in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and yet you cannot find these facts there either. Care to use another translation? If I'm wrong, then prove it:

-show me specific places in the Torah where GOD spoke directly against it, with a punishment following as HE consistently did throughout the Torah
-show me specific places in the Prophets where GOD spoke directly against it, with a punishment following as HE consistently did throughout the Prophets
-show me specific places in scripture where any of the Prophets spoke directly against it
-show me specific places in scripture where CHRIST JESUS spoke directly against it. (By the way: your scripture you used already is not directed towards polygamy, but divorce)
-show me specific places in scripture where the Apostle spoke against it in the Book of Acts
-show me specific places in scripture where the Apostles spoke against it in their Epistles to the Churches

ANY ONE OF THESE WILL DO JUST FINE!!!

[keith]

Trevor, I have already addressed your points. I will reprint my answers. The problem is you have not read or do not understand what I have said. I agree I can see no punishment in the word for polygyny, but does that make it righteous?? come on lets mature in our thinking..

you can continue to follow man's sins i will follow Father YAH.

Reply by keith on December 26, 2009 at 11:55pm Trevor, You have just proven my point. You are so right. There is no punishment that i can find for Davids murder and adultery ( i will leave off polygamy for you). I can see no punishment for Abraham marrying his sister.

Your argument now has crumbled by your own admission. Pay attention:

Your premise is: Polygamy/Polygyny is lawful because Father YAH never specifically punished anyone for it.

So I presented with you with scenarios in which persons were not specifically punished for their unlawful behavior. See below:

Read Judges ch 18, What was the levites punishment for
idol worship? Answer=none.
Rachel was not punished for her idol worship.
Moses was not punished for his murder of the egyptian.
Abraham was not punished for lying twice to the egyptian king
or Abimelech.
Abraham was not punished for marrying his sister.
Cain was not punished for murdering Abel.
Lot and his two daughters were not punished for incest.

By you and James' reasoning "if there is no punishment there is no transgression"

idol worship is lawful (rachel and judges ch 18 no punishment)
murder is lawful (moses and cain no punishment)
lying is lawful (Abraham and even Isaac were not punished)
incest with your daughter and sister is lawful (Lot and Abraham
were not punished)

Do you see the fallacy of your reasoning?

Here are the references that you can read, again a previous post that you did not read: Reply by keith on December 27, 2009 at 9:15pm

The Hebrew Wife by S. Dwight (written 1836)
Marriage and Divorce by David Instone Brewer
Toward Old Testament Ethics by W. Kaiser
An Unknown Jewish Sect by L. Ginzberg
Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls by L. Schiffman

all can be viewed in part on google books

[keith]

Here is a statement by someone who agrees with you (as it relates to polygyny being lawful) on Lev 18:18

Reply by James Pierce on December 27, 2009 at 3:41pm
Keith,

I agree with the DSS translation of Lev 18:18. Do not take another wife to your current wife to vex her. The word vex means to annoy, to trouble, etc etc. In other words, the act of marrying another woman in addition to your current wife for the purpose of annoying your first wife is simply violation of Torah. I agree with the Karaite Jews that if a man wants to take a second wife, the man must consult, and get the permission from the first wife. Its only moral to do so

Here is some more info:Reply by keith on December 27, 2009 at 1:31pm
James

I am now reposting the true lev 18:18 as written in the oldest torah known. It is not my interpretation but it is what it is. Hebrews of qumran wrote it 1000 years before the masoretic version.

readLev 18:18 is another prohibition. The dead sea sect (essenes) interpreted the scripture as it should have been one wife to another. In every place in the hebrew the idiomatic phrase is rendered one to another and it should read as such here. Thou shalt not take one wife to another to vex. The dead sea sect scrolls is Torah.

Read Toward OT Ethics by Walter Kaiser or The Hebrew wife by S. E. Dwight. Look in your king james for side notes

Trevor do you see now.
If you continue to justify polygny because of the sinful nature of men you will continue to transgress. Abraham, Jacob, David Solomon were great men but they were not perfect as YAHshua was. Follow their righteous ways not their unrighteous ways.

Serve Father YAH!! Not man.

[keith]

Trevor read this link (hopefully it works) This is from Inston Brewer who agrees with you on polygyny being lawful in Israel.



Here is another on how the qumran community interpreted the verse Lev 18:18 and their argument for monogamy. Here again I hope the link works.

Also keep in mind this scholar agrees with you and others that polygyny was allowed by Israel.


Read the other texts I gave you.

Man read the note by Zadok Kaseb above (I have no idea who he is, but I agree with his essay).

Polygyny is pagan culture and has nothing to do with the culture of The Most High YAH.

[keith]

Well I guess my link did not work. Just copy and paste this then.

http://www.tyndalehouse.com/Staff/Instone-Brewer/prepub/Jesus%20on%...

http://www.tyndalehouse.com/Staff/Instone-Brewer/prepub/Qumran%20Di...

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

I'm going to respond to each of your scenarios so that there is no mix up with the Word of Truth:

"Read Judges ch 18, What was the levites punishment for idol worship? Answer=none."

On the contrary, idol worship carries a heavy price specifically named in the entire Bible. Both physical and spiritual effects are birthed from it. The book of Judges was a lawless time as stated by the last chapter and the last verse of the book. Direct effects of this happened in the next chapter: the split of the nation, tribe against tribe. One sins, all feel it.


Rachel was not punished for her idol worship.

Rachel was not under covenant at the time.


Moses was not punished for his murder of the Egyptian.

Moses ran from the punishment that would have fell upon him= death. He was to be a liberator, but he tried to do it in a wrong manner. Because of that, he had to flee and was outside from his family and people for almost 40 years. Sounds bad to me!


"Abraham was not punished for lying twice to the Egyptian king
or Abimelech."

Abraham was not able to settle in the land each time he told a lie. Each time the lie was found out, he was sent away. He may not have been slain, but he was banned from their territory.

"Abraham was not punished for marrying his sister."

There was no law against such cultural practice at the time. This is spoken of by Apostle Paul (Romans 4:14-15), so therefore, if there is no law against such, then there is no punishment against such. No crime was committed technically. Case in point: Prostitution is technically legal in part of Europe, so by the law of their land they are not committing a crime. How can you go to Europe in that particular country and bring up such charges if there isn't a law against it to deem it a crime? The judge will deem it "legally not guilty", according to their laws, even though it may be culturally (and Biblically) "immoral." Immoral and legal are two totally different things. Morals play on culture, so keep that in mind.


Cain was not punished for murdering Abel.

Cain was banished from his family, and went about fearing for his life for his crime. To live in exile is shameful enough. Its the equivalent of serving life in prison. Cain could not be sentenced to death because legally speaking, GOD never gave the punishment death for murder, HE only gave death as a penalty for the eating of the fruit.


Lot and his two daughters were not punished for incest.

It will take me a while, but I can find the effects from this one as well.......


By you and James' reasoning "if there is no punishment there is no transgression"

idol worship is lawful (rachel and judges ch 18 no punishment), murder is lawful (moses and cain no punishment), lying is lawful (Abraham and even Isaac were not punished), incest with your daughter and sister is lawful (Lot and Abraham were not punished). Do you see the fallacy of your reasoning?

This is a total error on your part because ALL of them have plainly placed laws against them. My reasoning is not even addressed by this comment of yours. Its actually stupid for you to say because these all have been addressed by GOD and man.

The point is this: you are trying to literally contradict the scriptures and thereby justify your point. The reason why we say "if there is no punishment there is no transgression" is because ITS TRUE!!! How can you deem me guilty of a crime if there is no law against the action I performed? What charges will you bring before the judge? What law book will govern us all? What will insure that I receive a fair trial? Whose to say that I'm guilty or not, and by what standard? You know NOTHING of courts or legal matters, and I know this by the very way you speak. The term "GOD" is not YHWH' name, but His position. This term means "Judge" or "Ruler", and He is a righteous one. He just doesn't freestyle away at any matter that doesn't sound good. YHWH has a set order to govern all creation by. He said so Himself. YHWH is so good a GOD/Judge, even He is bound by His own rules!! So if there is no rule to bind one by, then there is liberty!!! The only thing to govern you at that moment is your moral outlook on a matter.

Romans 2:12-14
Romans 3:4-8
Romans 4:14-15
Romans 7

Can you punish your child for going a place you never placed a restriction on? Can you arrest someone for committing a crime when there is no law against said particular action? These are things you have to answer..........

[keith]

Trevor,

These arguments are so flawed it will take me some time to respond to them. I will see if I can respond without having the whole thing getting deleted.

Laws Against Polygamy

Ge 2:24
Lev 19:18
Lev 18:18 Dead sea scroll correct interpretation

In a trial against a polygamist these are the scriptures I would use. I would also list support from

Mal 2:14-16
Ezek chap 16

These are witnesses against polygasmist/plygynist believers.

Side comments by you:

YAH Psalm 68:4 as well as in most hebrew names is his name. YHWH is the tetragrammaton. Its pronunciation is lost. Names we use has no bearing at this time on this discussion. If you wish to discuss this we can.

Use of the term stupid reveals that your arguments are untenable and that you are emotional because you stand accused. I do not believe your arguments are "stupid". I just believe you have been misled. As a result your reasoning is flawed.

Now you should know the law was known from the time of Adam. Therefore to say persons were not under covenant or the law was not revealed to them is not consistent with scripture.

Examples of Laws prior to Sinai:

Joseph stating he would not sin against Father YAH (Potiphers wife) - adultery
Cain hiding abels body - murder
Destruction of Sodom - sexual perverseness
Rachel stealing the idols - stealing
Abraham making false witness to pharaoh and abimelech - false witness
Noah understanding what clean and unclean animals are - clean and unclean food
Moses giving Israel a day of rest - Sabbath

All of these are prior to the covenant at sinai. Yet the people knew of them.

Whats the point of this?

Polygyny is unlawful yet no where is there a specific punishment listed. I do not believe there are punishments for eating unclean food but yet we know not to eat them. Would you disagree? That does not make it right. You see Trevor your spirit must be right with Father YAH. You can not base your righteousness on what you think you can get away with.

Your example of prostitution is an example of a man made law, such as polygyny. I would always follow Father YAH law. Prostitution is a transgression.

You reject lev 18:18 correct interpretation. But Jacob is in direct violation of the traditional(incorrect) interpretation. Where was his punishment - to be cut off from his people.

My point is that many persons in the word transgressed known undisputed laws but were not punished (as far as we know). So you can not reject the fact that polygyny is wrong because people were not punished.

Above you subjectively made up punishments that are not consistent with scripture. If moses murdered a man no matter where he did it its a sin. A sin against Father YAH and the punishment is death not exile. By the way he formed his family when he ran away.

Abraham was not sent away by abimelech by the way. Abimelech gave him the best of the land.

Listen Trevor can you not at least accept polygyny violates Lev 19:18??

This is a heart issue and law issue. Those who believe that polygyny is lawful transgress both the law and the spirit of the law.

By the way there is no law against having sex with your daughter so lot and his daughters are ok Right?? ................ no its a transgression If a man can not marry have sex wuith his daughter in law then by equal application he can not have sex or marry his daughter.

Can you not answer my question on lesbianism. Its ok correct.

must stop now

[keith]

Read Judges ch 18, What was the levites punishment for idol worship? Answer=none."

On the contrary, idol worship carries a heavy price specifically named in the entire Bible. Both physical and spiritual effects are birthed from it. The book of Judges was a lawless time as stated by the last chapter and the last verse of the book. Direct effects of this happened in the next chapter: the split of the nation, tribe against tribe. One sins, all feel it
Trevor the punishment for idol worship is death. The levite was not punished. Do you know this story in Judges 18? This is a known trnasgression but yet the penalty was not exercised. Does that now mean idol worship is ok? By your reasoning...yes.

#2 Rachel was not punished for her idol worship.

Rachel was not under covenant at the time.

See above she was as everyone else in the world was. She was under the law. Just as sodom and gommorah were. Punishment for idol worship is death. She was not executed. So by your reasoning (punishment = transgression) idol worship for Rachel was ok.

#3 Moses was not punished for his murder of the Egyptian.

Moses ran from the punishment that would have fell upon him= death. He was to be a liberator, but he tried to do it in a wrong manner. Because of that, he had to flee and was outside from his family and people for almost 40 years. Sounds bad to me!

I guess this is the Trevor law book of punishments. Again, exile is not the punishment for his murder. The punishment was not given to Moses. Therefore by your reasoning murder is ok. And Moses left his mother father brother and sister his family was found in Midian and he was very happy there for 40 years. So I dont think he missed his family in egypt that much. But I could be wrong.....

#4 Abraham was not punished for marrying his sister."

There was no law against such cultural practice at the time. This is spoken of by Apostle Paul (Romans 4:14-15), so therefore, if there is no law against such, then there is no punishment against such. No crime was committed technically. Case in point: Prostitution is technically legal in part of Europe, so by the law of their land they are not committing a crime. How can you go to Europe in that particular country and bring up such charges if there isn't a law against it to deem it a crime? The judge will deem it "legally not guilty", according to their laws, even though it may be culturally (and Biblically) "immoral." Immoral and legal are two totally different things. Morals play on culture, so keep that in mind.

I have already stated the laws for man were known from day one. Therefore it was a crime. Would you then argue that The Most High unfairly destroyed sodom and gommorah. Those cities did not even get a warning yet were destroyed. By your reasoning in the statement above all the activities of sodom and gommorah were ok.
Abrahams punishment would have been to be cut off from his people. Now thats hard to do since he was at the beginning of his people.

#5 Cain was not punished for murdering Abel.

Cain was banished from his family, and went about fearing for his life for his crime. To live in exile is shameful enough. Its the equivalent of serving life in prison. Cain could not be sentenced to death because legally speaking, GOD never gave the punishment death for murder, HE only gave death as a penalty for the eating of the fruit.

Here again the Trevor law book rears its head. Father YAH law states that a murderer is to be put to death.

#6 Lot and his two daughters were not punished for incest.

It will take me a while, but I can find the effects from this one as well

Trevor there is no law in the Torah that forbids this practice (based on your reasoning which I call looking for loopholes in the law). By my study it is a transgression. But that is another topic.



Now not every transgression was punished immediately or ever by Father YAH, If we assume everything that ever happened in the bible was written down. So by logic we can say the same for polygyny correct.

I agreed with you earlier. I see no punishment for polygyny. But I do see that it is forbidden Lev 18:18 Dead Sea Scroll (you reject the Torah used by a group or 100% hebrews who lived before, during and after the life of the Messiah approximately 2000 years ago, but you know better than them). I do see that polygyny violates the Law of Marriage Ge 2:24 as YAHshua stated in Matthew 19:5. It is a law. Not all laws have a punishment that we as mere humans know of i.e. eating unclean foods. I do see that polygyny violates Lev 19:18 (here again no punishment is spelled out for this law). How do I say that.

Lev 19:18 KJV - Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.

Your wife is your first neighbor. If you are not willing to let your wife have many husbands then why should you have her share you with many women,

must stop.

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

After doing further research, here is a copy of an article that addresses the topic of polygamy.

Why did God allow polygamy / bigamy in the Bible?

The question of polygamy is an interesting one in that most people today view polygamy as immoral while the Bible nowhere explicitly condemns it. The first instance of polygamy/bigamy in the Bible was that of Lamech in Genesis 4:19: “Lamech married two women.” Several prominent men in the Old Testament were polygamists. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple wives. In 2 Samuel 12:8, God, speaking through the prophet Nathan, said that if David’s wives and concubines were not enough, He would have given David even more. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (essentially wives of a lower status), according to 1 Kings 11:3. What are we to do with these instances of polygamy in the Old Testament? There are three questions that need to be answered: 1) Why did God allow polygamy in the Old Testament? 2) How does God view polygamy today? 3) Why did it change?

1) Why did God allow polygamy in the Old Testament? The Bible does not specifically say why God allowed polygamy. As we speculate about God’s silence, there are a few key factors to consider. First, there have always been more women in the world than men. Current statistics show that approximately 50.5 percent of the world population are women, with men being 49.5 percent. Assuming the same percentages in ancient times, and multiplied by millions of people, there would be tens of thousands more women than men. Second, warfare in ancient times was especially brutal, with an incredibly high rate of fatality. This would have resulted in an even greater percentage of women to men. Third, due to patriarchal societies, it was nearly impossible for an unmarried woman to provide for herself. Women were often uneducated and untrained. Women relied on their fathers, brothers, and husbands for provision and protection. Unmarried women were often subjected to prostitution and slavery. The significant difference between the number of women and men would have left many, many women in an undesirable situation.

So, it seems that God may have allowed polygamy to protect and provide for the women who could not find a husband otherwise. A man would take multiple wives and serve as the provider and protector of all of them. While definitely not ideal, living in a polygamist household was far better than the alternatives: prostitution, slavery, or starvation. In addition to the protection/provision factor, polygamy enabled a much faster expansion of humanity, fulfilling God’s command to “be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth” (Genesis 9:7). Men are capable of impregnating multiple women in the same time period, causing humanity to grow much faster than if each man was only producing one child each year.

2) How does God view polygamy today? Even while allowing polygamy, the Bible presents monogamy as the plan which conforms most closely to God’s ideal for marriage. The Bible says that God’s original intention was for one man to be married to only one woman: “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife [not wives], and they will become one flesh [not fleshes]” (Genesis 2:24). While Genesis 2:24 is describing what marriage is, rather than how many people are involved, the consistent use of the singular should be noted. In Deuteronomy 17:14-20, God says that the kings were not supposed to multiply wives (or horses or gold). While this cannot be interpreted as a command that the kings must be monogamous, it can be understood as declaring that having multiple wives causes problems. This can be clearly seen in the life of Solomon (1 Kings 11:3-4).

In the New Testament, 1 Timothy 3:2, 12 and Titus 1:6 give “the husband of one wife” in a list of qualifications for spiritual leadership. There is some debate as to what specifically this qualification means. The phrase could literally be translated “a one-woman man.” Whether or not this phrase is referring exclusively to polygamy, in no sense can a polygamist be considered a “one-woman man.” While these qualifications are specifically for positions of spiritual leadership, they should apply equally to all Christians. Should not all Christians be “above reproach...temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money” (1 Timothy 3:2-4)? If we are called to be holy (1 Peter 1:16), and if these standards are holy for elders and deacons, then they are holy for all.

Ephesians 5:22-33 speaks of the relationship between husbands and wives. When referring to a husband (singular), it always also refers to a wife (singular). “For the husband is the head of the wife [singular] … He who loves his wife [singular] loves himself. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife [singular], and the two will become one flesh....Each one of you also must love his wife [singular] as he loves himself, and the wife [singular] must respect her husband [singular].” While a somewhat parallel passage, Colossians 3:18-19, refers to husbands and wives in the plural, it is clear that Paul is addressing all the husbands and wives among the Colossian believers, not stating that a husband might have multiple wives. In contrast, Ephesians 5:22-33 is specifically describing the marital relationship. If polygamy were allowable, the entire illustration of Christ’s relationship with His body (the church) and the husband-wife relationship falls apart.

3) Why did it change? It is not so much God’s disallowing something He previously allowed as it is God’s restoring marriage to His original plan. Even going back to Adam and Eve, polygamy was not God’s original intent. God seems to have allowed polygamy to solve a problem, but it is not the ideal. In most modern societies, there is absolutely no need for polygamy. In most cultures today, women are able to provide for and protect themselves—removing the only “positive” aspect of polygamy. Further, most modern nations outlaw polygamy. According to Romans 13:1-7, we are to obey the laws the government establishes. The only instance in which disobeying the law is permitted by Scripture is if the law contradicts God’s commands (Acts 5:29). Since God only allows for polygamy, and does not command it, a law prohibiting polygamy should be upheld.

Are there some instances in which the allowance for polygamy would still apply today? Perhaps, but it is unfathomable that there would be no other possible solution. Due to the “one flesh” aspect of marriage, the need for oneness and harmony in marriage, and the lack of any real need for polygamy, it is our firm belief that polygamy does not honor God and is not His design for marriage.

Resource: Elmer Towns