How many Christians will actually do this......

[James Pierce]

I'd really like to know the answer to this. It seems to me that the majority of Christianity loves to disregard this certain aspect that should be apart of their daily walk. Here is a heart pounding, thought provoking question:

If Yeshuah gathered all Christians around the world, and He asked them the question,"Who wants to keep Torah?" How many of you Christians on here will actually say YES LORD! to Messiah??

[Anna]

Treavor, have you not read the book of Revelation? John the Revelator tells us where the ark is, God has it in Heaven:

Rev. 11:19-

New International Version (©1984)
Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

International Standard Version (©2008)
Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen inside his temple. There were flashes of lightning, noises, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.


King James Bible
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

American King James Version
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightning, and voices, and thunder, and an earthquake, and great hail.

American Standard Version
And there was opened the temple of God that is in heaven; and there was seen in his temple the ark of his covenant; and there followed lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.


Don't let yourself be decieved! YHWH apparently (like a Mortgage banker) wrote the words of the Covenant, and gave Moses a copy and kept a copy for Himself.

Now PLEASE NOTE, REVELATION 11:19 does not say the ARK OF THE ***NEW COVENANT***, now does it???

So the covenant/Torah, which is IN THE ARK, AS LATE AS THE BOOK OF REVELATION is what God/YHWH, is holding in Heaven. It is not NEW LAWS, but the ORIGINAL laws/TORAH written in the hearts of the believers.

Now if you have been deceived to believe that the terms of the "NEW COVENANT were changed, so that you reject the TORAH, and have added man made laws never in the TORAH, then you need to ask yourself if you are a covenant breaker, see Rom. 1:31.

It is this COVENANT, this TORAH, which will be taught in the Kingdom of God/YHWH on earth:

Is. 2:
2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the LORD'S house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow into it. 3 Many people shall come and say, 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth the law/*****TORAH*** And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Micah 4:
1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law/***TORAH*** shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

You can change YOUR copy of your mortgage, your cell phone, your rent, to be payable on a different date, in pesos rather than dollars, annually rather than monthly. However if the one who offered the mortgate, cell phone, rental apartment, is not in agreement with the terms YOU want to follow, you will find yourself, forclosed, with no cell service and evicted out of your rental unit!

This is what the poor decieved individuals of Matt 7 ran into when they presented their pleas to Jesus about why they should get into the kingdom. His reply was that the were DISOBEDIENT TO THE LAW/THE COVENANT, therefore they were LOST!

Matt. 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

You saying that Jeremiah was the first Prophet to state your claims? That may be so, but you will not go into other Prophets that actually refute your claims: Hosea2:11-23

You say that circumcision is still in place? You can't find that in NT scripture whatsoever! The ONLY circumsion you can possibly mean is of the heart and not of the foreskin!

ALL the laws of the NT are dealing with the heart and spirit, and not with works of the priesthood or of the members of the Body of Christ. CHRIST Himself demonstrated this by not baptizing. The Apostles baptized in water, but HE did so with the HOLY SPIRIT. The Law of Moses deals almost totally with works of the flesh: foods to eat, Sabbath days to observe, circumcisions, washings, and the like.

We have a whole new system to follow, a whole new deal by which we are under. The Law of Moses was a covenant sealed by the blood of a lamb from the flock of Israel. The Law of Christ was a new covenant sealed by the blood of the Lamb of GOD. Two totally different deals, sealed with two totally different blood types. You hold so dear to Hebrews 8, but you will NEVER talk of it in its full context:

Hebrews 8

1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

You ALWAYS start off from verse eight, but never explain what "he found fault in", even who that "he" is! The "He" in this chapter is GOD Almighty, and what HE found fault in is the OLD COVENANT! Verse 6&7 says it, and verse 13 seals it, but you only cling to the in between verses, 8-12. That is a totally incomplete doctrine that you hold to!

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

You saying that Jeremiah was the first Prophet to state your claims? That may be so, but you will not go into other Prophets that actually refute your claims: Hosea2:11-23

That's like putting a prophet's words against a prophets words! How dare you! Hosea did did refute Jeremiah's words. That wouldnt make sense! Hosea prophecised to Israel before they went to into "captivity." His prophecy concerning the ending of the new moons, sabbaths, etc, has nothing to do with anything other than Israelite exile. Understand something, when they went to into captivity, they were under the mercy of them who captured them. There was no sabbaths, new moons, mirth, etc. Thats all that Hosea is saying. Jeremiah's words still stands!

You say that circumcision is still in place? You can't find that in NT scripture whatsoever! The ONLY circumsion you can possibly mean is of the heart and not of the foreskin!

Acts 16:3,"Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek." We have timothy taking part in this practice, but one does not need this to be in the NT to prove that Torah was in practice by the early 1st century church. If Torah was in practice during that time by all people, then circumcision was a definite thing to do. Circumcision of the heart isnt a new testament practice. Yehwah already spoke that in the book of dueteronomy.

ALL the laws of the NT are dealing with the heart and spirit, and not with works of the priesthood or of the members of the Body of Christ. CHRIST Himself demonstrated this by not baptizing. The Apostles baptized in water, but HE did so with the HOLY SPIRIT. The Law of Moses deals almost totally with works of the flesh: foods to eat, Sabbath days to observe, circumcisions, washings, and the like.

The Torah is spiritual, as Rabbi Paul said. Torah is not "works of the flesh." Works of the flesh are always dealt with sin. How dare you associate the Torah with sin! That is blasphemy! On the other hand, I believe you may be catching on to the fact that Hebrews is dealing with the ending of the levitical priesthood.

We have a whole new system to follow, a whole new deal by which we are under. The Law of Moses was a covenant sealed by the blood of a lamb from the flock of Israel. The Law of Christ was a new covenant sealed by the blood of the Lamb of GOD. Two totally different deals, sealed with two totally different blood types. You hold so dear to Hebrews 8, but you will NEVER talk of it in its full context:

I'd love, as I challenged you before, to talk about the whole of Hebrews 8. In fact. If you want, you and I can start a topic dealing only with Jeremiah 31 & Hebrews 8. I'd love to challenge you.

You ALWAYS start off from verse eight, but never explain what "he found fault in", even who that "he" is! The "He" in this chapter is GOD Almighty, and what HE found fault in is the OLD COVENANT! Verse 6&7 says it, and verse 13 seals it, but you only cling to the in between verses, 8-12. That is a totally incomplete doctrine that you hold to!

He found fault because israel broke it! To go even further, the priesthood was what was faulty, because it could not compleye But notice Yehwah says,"though I was their husband." This meant that He was faithful to them enough to get back into covenant with them. This time, this new covenant will not be broken, because He will remember their sins no more. This is possible through the blood of Yeshuah. Of course the "He" is Yehwah our Abba. My doctrine is incomplete? Ok, try me. I challenge you! ASK ME ANYTHING, or challenge me .

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

I've already challenged you: You FAILED!

-You said circumcision is still in affect based on ONE verse in the book of Acts. ONE VERSE DOES MAKE UP A TOTAL DOCTRINE! EVEN THE GOSPEL IS NOT EXPLAINED IN ONE VERSE!!!! The Apostle Paul and ALL OTHER APOSTLES taught different. He didn't do that for the sake of the BELIEVERS, but for non-believing Jews so that Timothy make enter into their company. Their house, their rules! NO BELIEVER IN YESHUA/JESUS would validate what you just said! If you can find one, then you found a false believer!

-In regards to Hosea's words, I didn't say that Hosea refuted Jeremiah, I clearly said he refuted YOU!

-I never said that Torah is the works of sin. I always knew that Hebrews dealt with the end of the levitical priesthood. However, it does not stop there, it introduces the new covenant to a people that grew up under the old covenant, and that is DEEPER than the Levites. He gave examples of Melchizedek, who was before Levi was ever born, even before Isaac.

-If you want to start the topic on Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8, then set it off! I'd be more than happy to participate!! :)

-You added to the Word and its meaning. The writer didn't say GOD found fault in Israel, he said HE found fault in the COVENANT ITSELF:

Hebrews 8:7 "For if that first COVENANT had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

You have not really challenged me. Now, if you want to "start over", then we can do that. Lets start with Jeremiah 31:31-34 & Hebrews 8... ALL OF IT. You go first. Its only reasonable that you do.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Only in a fresh new topic board......This discussion must have a clear cut description and challenge.

[James Pierce]

ok

[Anna]

How sad Travis that you really have not studied the text of Heb. 8:7!

If you will simply study a little deeper, you will find that the word "COVENANT" DOES NOT APPEAR IN Heb. 8:7!!!

Since you probably don't know how to look this up, I'll provide it here for you:

ei gar h prwth ekeinh hn amemptoV ouk an deuteraV ezhteito topoV

Heb. 8:7 For if that first **** [covenant] ***** had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


You see Treavor, The brackets ***[[[[ ]]]]*** around a word means that it was not in the original text but that it was ADDED BY THE TRANSLATORS!

So if you want to base your theology on INTERPOLATED words, then that's on you. You now see how faulty your position is.

God/YHWH, never found fault with His covenant! He is PERFECT and everything He creates is PERFECT!

He found fault in the PEOPLE, not His covenant!

If you simply let the Bible interpret itself, you will see in the VERY NEXT VERSE GOD/YHWH SAYS:

8 For finding fault with ***them***, hee saith.....

Them is "ISRAEL"! He found fault with the PEOPLE not His law, that is why the TORAH will be taught in the Kingdom, as reported by the Prophets in Isaiah 2 & Micah 2.

If the TORAH had faults, why would he bring it back and put it in the hearts and minds of His people???

Here are some translations that rightly EXCLUDE the word COVENANT from

Heb. 8:7:

Douay-Rheims Bible
For if that former had been faultless, there should not indeed a place have been sought for a second.

Darby Bible Translation
For if that first was faultless, place had not been sought for a second.

wycliffe:
8:7 7 For if the ilke firste hadde lackid blame, the place of the secounde schulde not haue be souyt

Coverdale:
7 For yf that first (Testament) had bene fautles, then shulde no place haue bene soughte for the secode.

Bishops
7 For yf that first *[couenaunt]* had ben founde fautlesse, then shoulde no place haue ben sought for the seconde.

The Bible does not contradict itself, it is you Treavor who hold doctrines that are not found in the Bible.

The Torah/Law is to be written in the hearts and minds of the New Covenant Believers!
God Said it, I Believe it That Settles it!!!

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

My name is not Travis, its T-R-E-V-O-R as you clearly see.

Also verse 7 is incomplete without verse 6! How about quoting that with it!

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Hebrews 8 is about the priesthood. All of Hebrews 8 is Yeshuah being the "High Priest" of the new covenant, and the decrees within the covenant are as follows:

1) Torah is written our hearts so that we can guide our lives by Torah.
2) Yehwah is our God, and we know Him within the new covenant. Furthermore, personally.
3) Our sins are forgiven, and never to be remembered.

[Anna]

Treavor the crux of the matter is who/what did YHWH found fault with? That is clearly explained in verse 8.

It was with people, is that too difficult for you to comprehend???

Yes, Treavor, please include me in your blog about Heb. 8 & Jer. 31.

Please note the New Covenant is made NOT WITH GENTILES, but with the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

You must be grafted in to partake of the covenant and the blessings.

Just like a naturalized citizen of the USA you must OBEY OUR LAWS! If you don't you are a criminal, a law breaker an outlaw! The same when you break YHWH's laws.

[Anna]

Note the Forerunner's commentary on Hebrews 8:

Hebrews 8:7-8

There indeed was a fault: "finding fault with them."</</b>u> Them is a plural pronoun, so it cannot possibly refer to the singular noun covenant. It would have to have read

"for finding fault with *** it.***"

God's Word is telling us—not completely yet—

that the fault was with a plural *** them ***.

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/3010...