New Covenant Debate.............

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

There has arisen an issue concerning the details of the New Covenant that our LORD and Savior YESHUA/JESUS has won for us by HIS blood and grace. Therefore, we are opening this discussion and starting it off for the edifying of the saints and the settling of the matter:

The subjects for this debate are along two lines:

-Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8: Do we still stand on the Torah?
-the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

You are disregarding what Yehwah said through Jeremiah. If you continue to say that Torah is not for the new covenant, then you have your own new covenant apart from Yehwah's covenant. I see Yehwah's covenant with 3 decrees:

1) Torah
2) All shall know Yehwah
3) Ultimate forgiveness of sins, never to be remembered

YOUR new covenant has 2 decrees:

1) All shall know Yehwah
2) Ultimate forgiveness of sins, never to be remembered

Hmm, it seems that the scripture support Yehwah over you. I think I see an anti-messiah. I will go with Yehwah my father. Will you go with His words? I already explained the law of Christ. You have to post the whole verse in Galatians 6:2. It says bear each other's burderns, for THAT is the law of Christ.. Now, that's settled.. I answered it, now its time to answer my missed questions that you've ran from for some time now. Provide your evidence where it says in scripture that the law of Christ is the abolishment of Torah?????


Jeremiah 31:31,"Behold, the days are coming, declares Yehwah, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah."

This is one scripture that is surely worth noting, because this scripture, at least the phrase "new covenant" is the center of debate, and is missed by many Christians. Most Christians that I have spoken with believe that they are under the new covenant, and that this new covenant was made with them... without the Torah. They insist on believing that this new covenant was made with them, and that they do not have to follow the Torah of Yehwah our Father.

But, the truth is, this new covenant was not made with Gentiles, rather, as Yehwah said in Jeremiah 31 & Hebrews 8,"I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah."The Hebrew people are the ones that Yehwah, initially, has made the covenant with, and no one else. This covenant includes the following decrees:

1) I will put my Torah within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people(verse 33). This actually means that your life will be directed, controlled, and governed by the Torah. The "heart" in the Hebraic understanding is the seat of one's moral and ethical decisions, the place where one decides. The phrase "I will be their God, and they my people" is a familiar phrase, which connects with God governing you by his Torah, and that is also in the book of revelation. Revelation 21:3,"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God." How do man become Yahuweh's people? It is by being under the new covenant WITH its three decrees, and that truly includes obedience to the Torah.

2) And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord(verse 34). To "know the Lord" makes use of the word "know" (yadah in Hebrew) in a technical sense relative to covenant making. To "know the Lord" does not mean to "know about the Lord," but to "know" Him in a covenant sense(i.e., to be loyal to Him in regard to the covenant decrees). In short, to "know the Lord" means to be obedient to Him by keeping the commandments of the covenant He has made.

3) For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more(verse 34). This was done, of course, when Jesus came, for his blood covers our sins, never to be remembered anymore. Jesus said in Matthew 26:27-28,"And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

The above three decrees are included in this new covenant, and were only made with Israel & Judah. But what about Gentiles, you may ask? Well, Gentiles who convert to the Jewish faith will be under the three decrees of the new covenant. Yehwah will write the Torah on the Gentiles hearts and minds, they will know the Lord in the covenant sense, and He will forgive them of their sins.

I want those who believe that Gentiles are to keep a different Torah than what Yehwah gave to Hebrews, to consider the following verse:

Exodus 12:49,"There shall be one Torah for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you."There is one Torah for the Hebrew & Gentile. Two Torahs do not exist. Christians love to hold to the belief that they do not have to keep the Torah, but that means they are not being faithful to the covenant decrees, and more over, not under the new covenant, and more dreadful, being Torahless.

Christians cannot come into the covenant of Yehwah, and change the Torah and times. The only spirit that does this is the spirit of the anti-Christ. Daniel 7:25,"He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the Torah." When the covenant was made, the three decrees would be here to stay, and no one can change them.. not even Christians.

Where does a Christian fit into this covenant, you may ask again? Let us look at what Paul said in Romans 11:19-20,"Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in', That is true."Christians, here the words of Yehwah. If you claim to be under the new covenant, then you cannot come in there with the spirit of anti-christ, and try to change the times, and the Torah. You are commanded to keep Yehwah Torah. If Jesus upheld Torah, then why not you? Do you think Paul agrees with you in not keeping Torah, thus disobeying Jesus?

If you do not want to keep his Torah, then you are not under the covenant, and you are none of his. Christians believe that Paul himself taught against the Torah. Guess what? That would make him an anti-Christ, and a hypocrite, for Paul himself said that he was a Pharisee!(Acts 23:3-6). We know its not true that Paul did not keep Torah, because the Apostles of the Lord would not have accepted him into the Apostolic community.

Paul says something in Hebrews 10:26-28,"For if we go on breaking the Torah deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Torah of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses." This scripture truly speaks for itself.

But, is sin missing the mark, according to Christians, or breaking the Torah? 1 John 3:4,"Everyone who makes a practice of breaking the Torah also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness." If you love Yehwah, then you would keep the 10 commandments, including the Sabbath, dietary laws, clothing laws, facial, feast days, wear the tzitzit, menstural, sexual, etc etc. The only person that can make these things a burden is yourself. Do not make the Torah a burden, but live it out with joy, as Yehwah intends for you to do. He wants you to enjoy loving, and obeying him.

Paul says another thing, Eph 2:12,"remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world." This was the state of Gentiles before they came to Jesus. They were aliens from Israel, and strangers to the covenant. Those who believe that you do not have to keep the Torah under the new covenant are still strangers to to the covenant, obviously, lost. Do not be deceived by the enemy who does not want you to obey the Father.

In closing, Jesus said something very great & and very scary. Matthew 7:21-23,"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of Torahlessness." Basically, those who keep not the Torah, and practice breaking the Torah, will be told to depart from He who kept Torah, Jesus. Them that does not keep Torah will not inherit eternal life, or the kingdomf Of God.

Now, let me make this clear, no one is saved by keeping Torah, but, upon trusting in Jesus for our salvation, we are to be obedient to him.

Those who claim that the law is abolished, done away, and do not need to be practiced under the "new covenant", needs to take a look back at Jeremiah 31:31-34 & Hebrews 8:8-12, and the decrees, and repent of their Torah breaking, or else they will be told to depart from the Lord. Repent(turn to Yahuweh via his Torah), place your faith in Jesus for salvation, and live a holy life by keeping the Torah. LIVE!!!!!

[Anna]

Trevor:
In my Bible, it states that we have ONE LAWGIVER, not TWO, as you so erroneously teach.

Isa.33
[22] For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

Jas.4
[12] There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another

YHWH our Heavenly Father is our Lawgiver, the Son Yahshua taught and kept the laws of His Father. He strengthened His Father's laws and made them harder to keep by commanding that we not even "THINK" about breaking them, rather than just breaking them.

For instance, under the Law of Moses, a man only committed adultery if he physically committed the act. Under Yahshua's law, you could not even THINK about committing adultery.

Also, under Yahshua's law, you could not even think about killing someone else, or you had committed adultery in your heart. So in keeping the SPIRIT OF THE LAW, you automatically keep the letter.

Rev.14
[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Isa.42
[21] The LORD...... he will magnify the law /TORAH # H 8451, and make it honourable

[Anna]

Trevor:

You stated:
"Law of CHRIST says these are punishable by excommunication, with plenty of opportunity to repent."

What happened to, these lying believers in

Acts 5:
5- And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things."
&

[10] Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

When did this NEW TESTAMENT man and his wfie have pleanty of opportunity repent.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

You don't know their entire story, or how long they had to repent. Try again.........

[Anna]

Trevor: Since you apparently know something that was not revealed to us in the scripture, provide us your proof that Annanias and Sapphira had pleanty of opportunity to repent. Just how long did they have?

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

The reason I came this way is because I wanted an agreement #1 of who Yeshua is, #2 that HIS death revealed a mystery of the Holies of Holy, that HE loved us enough to shed blood for us.

and 3 which comes from the Jewish point of view, and the reason I asked for an explanation of it's subjectivity, is if there is a understanding of Torah literally as Moses gave it, preserved in the Sefrah Torei of the Jewish Scribal arts, it is evident that it has indeed physically changed. from Ketav Ivri to Ketav Ashurit by Ezra after the Babylonian Exile. This is given out in the Talmud itself, Sanhedrin 21b

Not to mention if you take in the entire tradition of the Rabbis over the centuries halakhah for one, we then definitely know there has been various changes in it's historical interpretation

The Jewish sages even admit that it's observances are subject to various ages that are in effect . In Olam Haba (world to come) the mitzvah will be nullified.... and even in Olam Hazeh (this world) we see how Moshe changed some of the laws he wrote to fit the conditions of the people.

Now James can you tell me why you believe it's not subject to change. and I will finish up

[James Pierce]

Evan,

The downfall here is that you are putting Talmudic interpretations over the actual written text. Yeshuah said that it is MOSES that we should listen to, and not the Pharisees and Saducees who added to Torah(Matt 23). They were the ones that contributed to the oral Torah. Evan, again, provide evidence from the WRITTEN Torah that the Torah has changed.

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

THANK YOU

James you are talking about the "Moral Law" and no it has not! it is a universal principle,and it is our human duty to keep it, and this is where the rubber hits the metal, it produces an alienation in our heart, our moral condition has been revealed, and our conscience stands witness that we violate the Torah on a regular basis.

Now James let me say, I do reverance the Torah, it is in my heart forever, and I understand that before we as Christians can truly grasp the New Testament we must study the Torah to receive the whole counsel of God.

however I know that it is erroneous doctrine that we are justified or even sanctified by the terms of the covenant given at Sinai.
I am simply saying that we are to be Torah aware. All of us wether we are born Jewish or not are made a part of God's beloved family by means of God's love and grace through HIS Son Yeshua. HE ALONE is our Savior and Advocate. There is no zechut (merit) or kapparah (forgiveness) apart from HIM

Be Blessed my Brother

[James Pierce]

Evan,

Again, provide evidence from the WRITTEN Torah that the Torah has changed.

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

Baby there is no need, it has NOT changed, it WILL not change, but the Word of God states in

1Peter 20 that Yeshua was known before the foundation of the World (before the Torah) but was made manifest in the end days for our sakes

James the knowledge of the Torah that you have, places you above many Christians that have not taken the time or do not know the signifcance of it. GOD HAS BLESSED YOU, BE SET FREE!!!!

[Anna]

Sis Fugett:
When are you saying that knowledge of the laws/commandments began? Are you suggesting that YWHW's laws were not known before Sinai?

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

NO, YHWH is Alpha and Omega, HE and all essence of I AM is infinite. HIS moral laws were burned in our hearts the moment Adam was cast out of the garden,

Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

We are born in the inherited sin of our forefather, Adam, but Hallelu'YAH, 1Cor 15:21 says that through man came death, but also through man came the ressurection, it is through Yeshua ALONE, that we are saved.


I got to go. I love you Hallelu'YAH, my sister