Apostleship vs. Apostolic Succession

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

A question was presented to me concerning the Apostleship...my Apostleship in particular.

"Regarding you being an Apostle, can you trace your apostleship back to the original 12 Apostles? If you can please start a new blog, listing all the men in your spiritual genealogy back to one of the 12.

Of what significance is it if the authority behind the hands laid on you, cannot be traced by, man to man to man, through the centuries to the original 12? Black people probably can't trace their spiritual genealogy back past slavery. Then you get into Protestant Europe, then back to the Roman Catholic church.

If you cannot list your spiritual lineage, I suggest that you refrain from using the term "Apostle".

The doctrine/idea this individual has set before me and us all to see is one called Apostolic Succession. This comes from a thought on the Papacy/Bishopric being able to trace its origins all the way back to the original twelve Apostles as a lineage/family tree.

There are several problems with such a doctrine, but for the sake of this conversation, I am going to approach it from the office of the Apostle. We Apostles do not trace our line all the way back from person to person, Apostolic fathers ordaining us along the line as time passes and people die. The Apostleship is not gained by such. Such an idea derives from the thought of a "monarchy", and not from the origin of the office. A king chooses his successor after him to fill the place of rulership.

Contrary to such, the Apostles do not choose who will be the next Apostle down the line. It is the LORD GOD the FATHER, the LORD JESUS, and GOD the HOLY SPIRIT who decide the next Apostle. Only in the case of the 12 did the LORD choose one to replace a fallen Apostle. This Apostle was Matthias (Acts 1). By definition, Judas has to be the Apostolic father of Matthias. This is heresy because Judas was dead already, so there was no "succession", but a replacement. Each Apostle is elected and ordained directly by the LORD JESUS Himself. Man cannot ordain an Apostle, only "affirm" his Apostleship. Paul was not ordained by any man on Earth. James, Peter, and John gave him and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, thus affirming their Apostleship (Galatians 2:7-10). If Paul was to trace his Apostleship back to the 12, then he wouldn't have said what he said in Galatians 1, or 1st Corinthians 9:1-2.

It was the Papacy and the "Episcopal Monarchy" that brought about the heresy of Apostolic Succession.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Concerning my Apostleship, it is sure and proven by the witness that the HOLY SPIRIT gives me and others that I am called to minister to (Messianic Jews included in this list). My work speaks for itself. I don't perform parlor tricks and give false hope, I raise up disciples of CHRIST JESUS. Those that accuse me, can they profess to doing the same? When it counts, what is the substance of their counsel to people who need the LORD?

-Is it teaching flawed Hebraic thought and culture which is, or Kingdom of GOD culture and the flawless mind of CHRIST?
-Is it eating "spiritually clean foods" (which does not exist), or eating healthy?
-Is it circumcision of the foreskin or a changed heart and mind?
-Is it about what day to worship HIM on, or just worship HIM?
-Is it that to know GOD you have to speak Hebrew and call HIS Son Yeshua, or to know that the name of JESUS is powerful in any language for HE made them all?

I will respond to no more questions on me, especially on a Christian website from people who aren't Christian, for I'm not the focus. Apostolic succession is the focus here. And above all else, JESUS remains the focus......

Take Torah off of His throne! It pointed to HIM, not the other way around!

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Yashah taught His Apostles this.... Luke 11:28,"Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" Are you keeping Yehwah's word?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Yes, I do! I challenged you to that actually! Where do you stand as far as the new covenant? Do you even know what is required? Do you understand who the HOLY SPIRIT is? This is also keeping GOD's word, which is KNOWING GOD!

[Della Morton]

I am an Apostolic Pentecostal it is non-Denominational and it derives from the Day of Pentecost (acts2)and The Apostles Teaching To Be Saved (Acts 2:38!

Can One say they have Faith and Not Obey the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ?
For Example :You can Take a drunk man In a Bar and he says YEAH I BELIEVE in JESUS! Will he make it? Let us read what scripture has to say?


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 (King James Version)

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
So after Jesus Christ resurrected THE GRACE OF GOD APPEARED UNTO ALL MEN AND THE GOSPEL WAS PREACHED BY HIS Apostles. How Can I say His apostles have the truth?John 17:17-20 (King James Version)

17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
WHO'S WORD? THE APOSTLES. We are to believe on Jesus Christ through THEIR WORD! God Gave them the TRUTH!

So What Did they Preach to Be Saved for all man kind? Acts 2:37-40 (King James Version)

37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


Romans 6:14-16 (King James Version)

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1 Corinthians 6:8-10 (King James Version)

8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The person By walking in God's Grace Must Decide if He's Going to Walk in God's Word or Do NOTHING!
Acts 5:32 (King James Version)

32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him

As we Read It's Also important To Obey the Gospel.
Here's another example in Romans 2:7-9 (King James Version)

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

God Has Granted Grace to Us So we can have space to repent and Believe The Gospel before we die! Not To Continue in Sin And Say Yeah I Believe You Lord Your Grace will save me and Do Nothing!

Guess What? In James 1:22 (King James Version)says:

22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
James 2:19-21 (King James Version)

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

He Had Faith What God HAD Said and By His Works HE SHOWED HE BELIEVED GOD!
What If Abraham Said YEAH LORD I BELIEVE AND Went on a picnic with His Son and forgot about What God Asked Him to Do? He would have been disobedient.

OK, Another example is Noah. When God Told Noah to Build the Ark . What If Noah Said YEAH LORD I HAVE FAITH YOU CAN MAKE US FLOAT ABOVE THE WATER WHEN THE FLOODS COME AND YOU SAVE US! AND WENT AND SAT UNDER AN OLD OAK TREE UNTIL THE FLOODS CAME?
WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED? HE AND HIS FAMILY AND ALL THE ANIMALS WOULD HAVE DROWNED! WHY? Because He Didn't Obey God at His WORD!
Also when he built the ark by FAITH God TOLD HIM TO MAKE IT OUT OF GOFER WOOD! If Noah built it out of some other wood It Would have probably Would have Sunk! SO IT"S VERY IMPORTANT TO DO IT THE WAY GOD SAYS TO DO IT!
God Sent These Men (The Apostles) (John 17:17-20)He GAVE THEM TRUTH AND PRAYED THAT WE WOULD BELIEVE ON HIM THROUGH THEIR WORD! WHO"S Word? The Apostles. Read it for your self. He Gave Peter The Keys!
So What Did He Preach to be saved? Acts 2:38 (King James Version)

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Notice those who gladly received the Word of God Was Baptized. (Acts 2:41 same chapter)They Had Faith and obedience by the Grace Of God! Some People say Baptism is not necessary!
If The Rest of The Apostles Didn't agree with this message Don't you think one of them would have stood up and Corrected Him?
I had someone say to me Well Whose Words are you going to believe? Jesus(God) Or MANS THE APOSTLES?
I replied I am going To Believe THE WHOLE WORD OF God! Both! What we Have Here Is Man contradicting Scripture! If YOU DON"T BELIEVE THE Apostle's Word THAN YOU MIGHT AS WELL THROW AWAY MOST OF THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT! why even bother reading it if you don't believe it!

God's Word Is in Agreement through out the Whole Bible! It ALWAYS flows in Perfect Harmony! It Never Changes!
My Prayer Is : 2 Timothy 2:25-26 (King James Version)

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

So my question to you is? If you Heard This message of Acts 2:38 Just Now, What will keep you from obeying the Truth? Or Will you say YEAH LORD I BELIEVE! AND do nothing toward Obedience to His Word? Ignore This Scripture (Acts 2:38,) Jesus Even said you Cannot enter in the Kingdom of God if you are not Born-Again in (John 3:3-5)and YET SOME believe God can go outside of His word And Save you?
The Lord Bless You All IN JESUS NAME! And Thank you for taking the time to Read This, If you Have any Questions Please feel free to drop me a line on my Page. LOVE IN CHRIST,Della Morton
IF YOU FOLLOW THE BIBLE YOU CAN"T GO WRONG! HISTORY is Man Made But God's WORD REMAINS FOREVER!

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Sadly, this discussion has drifted from the origin of the subject. Lets get back on course, cause this aint done at all!!

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Apostolic Succession for the Bishopric is very much so needed, however, Apostleship is not an office that follows such an order. When in reference to Apostolic offices like the Seat of Peter in Rome (the Pope), yes, there is be a line that they follow because it is not a new work established. When talking about the C.O.G.I.C. family, yes the Chief Apostle & Presiding Prelate Bishop Blake and all others would fall under the Apostolic Succession category, tracing their line back to the Apostle C.H. Mason. Not so with Apostleship. The Bishopric continues a work that was started by an Apostle. An Apostle, however, does not continue someone else's work, but starts up his/her own. Take this scripture for example:

"Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: but as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand. For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you." - Romans 15:19-22

If you look at the three Epistles for the Bishopric, (1st & 2nd Timothy, and Titus), these two gentlemen were not doing the Bishopric work, but Apostolic establishment. From them would be a Church established and ordered, with the Bishops picking up from where the Apostles left them to finish. Take note of what Apostle Paul said to Apostle Titus:

"For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:" - Titus 1:5

The word "Elder" in this verse is synonymous with the words "Pastor", and "Overseer/Bishop". Titus was not called to be the Bishop, but to ordain the Bishops. This is part of what Apostles do. They start a work, and plant overseers of the work to continue where they left off. Apostolic Succession would work and continue from there, if it ever were to continue. But it would have little to no relevance to the Apostle's office. The Apostle is hand-selected by GOD and affirmed by Prophets, and fellow Apostles to go forth and do the work GOD has specifically called them for.

The Bishopric in essence continues what the Apostles start. An Apostle does not have to even be a Bishop over an already established work before being sent out to start a new project for Christ.

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

What is in a title?

THE IMAGINATION OF YOU OWN HEARTS!!!

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

http://abcpreachers.ning.com/group/thecommonwealthofthehouseholdofi...


Check out this group, and join. We tell the truth of the God of the Bible.

[A.W. Bowman]

I must apologize to sister Anna !

I had stopped following this thread after I had posted my comment, and therefore missed your question - until I was reminded of the thread today by a note from Brother Greene.

Your question certainly deserves an answer. I hope the following will serve.

First, we must remember that during the earthly ministry of Jesus, He was centered only on ministering to the lost sheep of Israel, not the world (that was to come later). See Matthew 10:6; 15:24, John 4:21-23.

The original twelve Apostles were not from the twelve different tribes of Israel, but were representative of the twelve and would serve as the foundation of the church, along with the Prophets of old. (Ephesians 2:20). It is upon the testimony of the original that the church received its initial revelation of who and what Jesus actually is. And, it must be kept in mind that the Jewish sect called 'The Way” of the Rabbi from Nazareth, is first and foremost a Hebrew religion – always was and shall also remain so. We Gentiles are grafted in (Romans 11:17-24) to the root of Jesse, the nation of Israel, and adopted into the house of David of the tribe of Y'hudah (Ephesians 1:4-7), but we are never called a replacement or a substitute, except for the branches that have been cut off to make room for us from the wild olive tree.

Therefore, the first always take precedence over those following after, except when God personally intervenes and raises up another in place of the first (Acts 1:22-26). Also notice that the names of the twelve are not listed in the scriptures concerning the foundations of the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:14), their names can only be assumed (Question: Does one of the twelve foundations include the name of Judas? Malthus? Paul? A yes or no response to each name can only be a speculation. My guess would be Malthus.) Regardless, the first are given preeminence for it was upon the testimony of first twelve that all else is based, regardless of any other person being called to the same or similar position/office.

Conclusion:
The New Jerusalem is to be the seat of Jesus' rule on earth. The nation of Israel, Jerusalem, the temple, the tribes of Israel, the religion, the history, the culture, the traditions, the law, the language of the faith was: Hebrew. It is through that world view lens that we must interpret the Bible.

In both 1 Corinthians 12:28-31 and Ephesians 4:11-13 we have a listing of the senior church leaders – but no one word concerning the elimination of any of them (apostle or teacher). Rather just the opposite, they all would continue to exist (Eph 4:13), “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ “

So, we continue to suffer teachers, shepherds, evangelists, and all of the rest that are in place to oversee Christ's work (His body) on earth. Now, comes the task of each and every saint of God: Learning how to separate the counterfeit from the legitimate.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

DYNAMIC statement my brother! Simply dynamic!

[Lester Demings Jr]

Well, if you are an apostle then tell us what missionary work have you done?
How many crack houses have you been to?
The apostles of the bible went around preaching, teaching and setting up churches.
How many churcheshave you set up?
The apostles of the Bible healed and did other miracles.
How many miracles have been performed through you?
See, the way I was taught is if it does not line up with the Word then it is not of God. You can't call yourself an apostle just because you "feel" that you are. There must be a definite sign of your ministry.
The funny thing about church folk (that yet amazes me) is how they can follow the Bible letter for letter until they have to prove themselves or when they are challenged.
The simple way to refute any doubt in a person's mind is by doing what you say you are.
How many times in the Bible did Jesus SAY who he was?
Jesus let His WORK speak for Him- not His lipservice because that means nothing- especially in a day like today.
If you are an apostle then you are to do as the Bible said do II Timothy 4:5, "But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."
See the last part of that scripture?
Make FULL PROOF of thy ministry.
So, do you do the work of an apostle or do you just carry the title?