Did Paul Keep God's Laws?

[Eccl. 12:13]

Here is a simple question.....Did Paul keep God's Laws?

We know of at least one he kept;


Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So when Paul read the law and found that to "covet" was a sin, do you think he continued?

But what of the others laws? Do you think Paul kept only the one law, or were there others that he kept?

What about when Paul read the rest of God's laws? When he read that it is a sin to lie, did he stop liying?

When Paul read it was a sin to steel, murder, worship idols, and the others do you think Paul did his best NOT to do those things?

Simple question.....Did Paul keep God's laws?


.

[Zealot X]

As far as we know he kept them all.

[Eccl. 12:13]

But did Paul try to do that which is right? Did Paul try to keep God's laws?

So you are NOT a law keeper?

[Zealot X]

Luke 10:25 - And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

Luke 10:25 - And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Keep in mind, the Law was still in effect at that time because Jesus had not been crucified. All things of God are done according to His plan and timing. Jesus was not going to tell them anything different that would cause them to sin against the Father by breaking any of the laws during his 3 year ministry on earth.

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

What about after Jesus' Death?

1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer
therein?

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

Do you not handpick your scriptures Brother, except they don't mean what you think they mean because you don't line them up like this.

Forgive him Lord for he knows not what he does.

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

Lord forgive him for calling me arrogant because he knows not that I speak only the truth for I follow the truth. Thine Word is truth.

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

Again, Lord help him understand thine word, and wisdom, that the Holy ghost set upon me when I opened my mind to follow thy word, and thy laws, and to humble myself, so that you may be able dwell in me through your Word Lord. In Jesus name Amen.

[Zealot X]

Pat,

But he also did not tell them anything would be different after he died. Keep in mind that Yeshua wasn't the first sacrifice. They already had a system that pointed to him. If someone sacrificed according to the sacrificial system before he died they would also be saved just as if they had believed in him. Everyone who kept the law B.C. also had a sacrifice that covered their sins. They did not have to believe in any name or believe any trinitarian doctrines or anything extra. All they had to do was sacrifice this animal according to the law.

So it was according to the law that Yeshua died, but the sacrifice had never taken the law away. It had always however removed the punishment for sins they committed. So to say that this is different now than it was then and after he came now destroys the law, this is something we need scripture to back up and there is no prophecy stating this would happen. In Daniel we see that the sacrifices and the oblations would cease. Even if people did not believe in him the sacrifice and the oblations STILL ceased because of the destruction of the temple in 70AD. So YHWH was very serious about bringing this sacrficial system to a close because it was accomplished or "performed" once for all time. No one else needed to sacrifice. All the sacrifices were only symbolic. Even Yeshua's sacrifice was symbolic. It represented the ultimate sacrifice and the greatest love.

But the law was never impacted by man's ability to offer sacrifices to escape the punishment of his sin. There may still be consequences and punishment for the nation but that's different. Point is that the plan of salvation never gave man the ability to disregard the law. It was only something they were to do when they had broken the law.

So please show us the scriptures you are using to back up the idea that the law is supposed to go bye bye when the ultimate sacrifice is made. Plus, please explain how YHWH, being perfect and just, made man keep this law that he knew they couldn't follow even though the punishment was death, and why he only removed such punishment after thousands of years for gentiles but there is still a lake of fire.


Shalom

[Eccl. 12:13]

I noticed that ALL of the scriptures you quoted were those of Paul. Let's read what Jesus said, then let's go and re-read Peter's warning concerning Paul's writings.

You say keeping the law cannot save. Well here is what your Lord and Saviour said;

Matt.19
[16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Now let's read what we must do for eternal life....according to the ONLY one that can give it to you;

[18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Now let's read Peter's warning;

2 Peter 3
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Now are you SURE Paul is talking about ALL 613 laws? I mean you can't be off on this one. 99% is not good enough!

Now I am 100% sure Jesus knows what He is talking about. And if He says keeping the law gives eternal life, then you can best bet I'm going to try to keep as many as I can.

Which begs the question, Just because we cannot keep ALL of the law, does that mean we should not try to keep ANY of them?

And just because Paul said we are justified by faith, does it mean faith ONLY?

Let's leave Paul's writings for just a moment and read what others have said;

James 2
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Like I said, Paul didn't say faith ONLY!

James says we need faith AND works!

Jesus said we need to live by EVERY word of God. Is not the writings of James the word of God?

Understand something, Paul often spoke of "the deeds of the law" and "the works of the law"

The two phrases are talking about a set of laws that required work.


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[Zealot X]

Matthew 9:13 - But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Anthony, I think you should really start doing a careful reading of the law as you continue to offer these responses so that you have a greater depth of what it is you are saying cannot save. I just want to make a couple quick points before I head out to lunch and maybe we can discuss them.

Exodus 20
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I YHWH thy elohim(G-d_ am a jealous el(G-d), visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Can we first agree that "visiting the iniquity" is some form of punishment or destruction? If you hate YHWH and you are working iniquity (sin) then this is what he prescribes as just judgment. However, if you love him and keep his commandments (which is repeated in the NT) then he has what for you? Mercy.

The law is not without grace and mercy. The law has grace and mercy for those who love YHWH and are TRYING to obey. It is the willful disobedience of children that get them in trouble. Let's read the 5th command.

2 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which YHWH thy elohim(G-d) giveth thee.

long days = long life

Why would your life be long because you are honoring your parent? What happens when you don't listen to your parents wisdom?

What would have happened if Adam had NOT broken the only command we know was given to him? Was he not immortal?

Adam did not need salvation before he sinned. If he would have KEPT the commandment he was given he would have had ETERNAL LIFE. He wouldn't have needed to be "saved" because he wouldn't have been in sin in the first place.

Questions? Comments?

[Zealot X]

Anthony, I have also studied and debated this topic for years. I do not think your approach is haphazard. I have heard your arguments many times before. So it is not out of ignorance that I respond to them. We have to be careful, you and I, because our years of study can blind us to truth because we have more of a tendency to believe we already know it. I am more than happy to entertain anything you have to say as long as you are giving me the same courtesy. We should at least humor each other, no?

I'd like to avoid the typical... the standard.... "you're trying to justify yourself by works" sort of thing because that is actually not what I believe. The Pauline arguments apply mainly to legalists, lawyers, and Judaizers; those who Paul was opposed by while trying to teach the gentiles. However, I am not an opponent of Paul OR the gentiles. That is why I can already tell you that his arguments do not apply to me. And because I am not opposing Paul please do not presume to know my argument prior to me actually making it. I've sat back and pretty much heard your argument and have only given general comments at different times.

I like my important debates to be a little better organized than the way the law is typically debated on this site as a shouting match/penile measurement competition. So when I ask certain questions or make certain statements I would greatly appreciate those choosing to argue against me to actually deal with what I am saying as I say it and not try to get ahead of me as if I don't read Paul's writings and have no idea what he said. Grace is nice but it is only necessary AFTER you have disobeyed the Most High. It is better to obey than to sacrifice.

YHWH's willingness to forgive you is not opposed to his desire to be obeyed. He wants both. And more accurately he has grace on you so that you have another chance to obey. Since you said you studied this thoroughly I shouldn't have to tell you about all the times YHWH got frustrated with his people because of their disobedience. He compared them to a whore. We all should know that you don't try to turn a 'ho' into a housewife. And YHWH had no intention on taking them back so that he could be eternally 'Tiger Wooded' by his people.

2 Chronicles 7:14 - If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

The grace you are talking about is conditioned upon exactly what I just quoted. And I can show you that the NT agrees if you are willing to hear it. But let's take baby steps so that there is no excuses preventing us from reaching a conclusion that agrees with the OT and the NT. So I believe I asked you about the 5th commandment and why it determined long life on those who honored their parents.... And I also asked you why Adam lost immortality because he did not keep the only commandment given. These are the questions before you and I will await your answer to these questions and anything else you missed from my above post.

Todah & Shalom