Well I guess when it comes down to it, just as Esau sold his birth right for a pottage, Obama, everyone's great hope forgot who gave him the victory and decide to sell his soul for another shot in the White House.

And before anyone jump up I have been an Obama supporter, but I can't agree with this move. Obama has just decided to put worldly prize above principle and above the things that is scared to God namely he has decided tojoin in the desecration to Gods oldest institution, the marriage.

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Angela, gay couples will not marry where they are not wanted.  There are plenty of ministers who will marry them.  Your argument is not accurate. 

Angela, there are plenty of gay folk who love the Lord and believe that God is already on their side.  Again this is not about God ordaining their marriage (this is between them and God).  This is about legal rights and not religious rights.

Gerald again, you are more concern of the rights of those who wish to cause abomination to God, my dear fella before you state I am not accurate you may want to establish why I say what I say. Now gays already are getting married they are allow to have civil marriage so hy does the law need to change when their marriages are already been recognised. And like you said there are plenty of ministers willing to marry them so why is there a need to change my brother maybe you and I are not from the same country but believe me when I say the change of law is to force ministers to marry gays in church ministers are already been warned in my country that should they be approach by a gay couple and refuse to marry them then their licience will be provoke so my brother what about the rights of the indidvual minster to stand up for their faith, you are concen alright the rights of gays but they already have the right to marry civillay so why do they want a position where ministers rights will be taken away.  

My dear I am not a minsiter but the rights of minsiters God people is under attack and that my friend means the devils hand is at play so check yourself who you believe in and whos command you are following and who you are more concern about and dont twist God's word to say God is okay with a man ana man and woman and woman, Sodom and Gommorah was not a mistake it was not destroyed for nothing.  There is pleanty of Scriptures that let you who should not uncover whose nakeness my friend please study the Word of God for youself, you can not just rely on theological education because not all theological teachers are spirit filled not all are there for the love of God.

Theological teachers can be challenged believe me whenI studied I would challenge things in their teaching that I did not believe was Biblically sound.  Study my dear Gerald to rightly divide the word of God but do not allow the devil to distort your mind let the Holy Spirit lead you into all truth.  Contrary to popular believe do do not change he is the same yesterday, today and forever.  Sodom and Gomorrah was an abomination to him yesterday it will still be an abomination today and tomorrow, just the same sin is an abomination yesterday sin is still an abomination today. 

oh and by the way Gerald in case you fail to understand the point I am making here is the take of the Eurpeon court should gay marriages become legalised then no minister can refuse to married them because they will be considered breaking the law so my dear chap I do know what I am talking about the rights of minsters to opt out or maybe you feel that true believers in Christ is not entitled to the freedom and if that is your arguement or you not being hyprocritical when you say equal opportunity or equal rights what about the right of an indidvual not to cause offence to the one and only true God creator of heaven and earth do you propose that all believers follow your path and fall away from Christ doctrine to follow satans doctrine.

Here is the report because my dear chap this discussion may only have come to light with Obama in America but it is one that has been going on for a while here in the UK and like Obama they will do anything for votes so you see they want to implement soon and hey pesto I wonder if bringing this law in have anything to do with the fact that the Scriptures state the anti christ will have no desire for women or did you not read that in Scripture.

ECtHR: Churches WILL be forced to conduct same-sex marriages

As the Government launch their not-a-consultation on 'gay marriage', it transpires that even thefons et origo of the equality industry are washing their hands of the proposal. Judges in theEuropean Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg have said: "The European Convention on Human Rights does not require member states’ governments to grant same-sex couples access to marriage."

BUT they warn (as everyone really knows and His Grace has been warning for years) that if same-sex unions became lawful, any church (and synagogue, mosque and gurdwara) that refuses to marry gay couples could be charged under existing anti-discrimination legislation, irrespective of any statutory exemptions. The judges said: "Where national legislation recognises registered partnerships between same sex, member states should aim to ensure that their legal status and their rights and obligations are equivalent to those of heterosexual couples in a similar situation."

Otherwise, of course, there is discrimination in the state, which is illegal. Ergo, the Coalition’s assurance that no religion will be compelled to conduct the weddings is worthless: Parliament will be forced to amend its legislation to conform to the judgement of the courts to which it is subject. We all know and fully understand that European law (that which emanates from both Strasbourg and Brussels) overrides any rule of national law found to be in conflict with any directly enforceable rule of European or EU law.

The European Court of Human Rights is not an institution of the European Union. It is a creation of the Council of Europe (again, not an EU body: it has 47 member states) and rules on disputes arising from the European Convention on Human Rights which was incorporated into UK law in the Human Rights Act 1998. In this sense, Strasbourg has nothing to do with Brussels. But the only remedy to the erosion of parliamentary sovereignty is to revisit both the European Communities Act 1972 and the Human Rights Act 1998. By the former was the sovereignty of Parliament fatally compromised, and by the latter was it made unlawful for any public body to act in a way which is incompatible with the ECHR. UK judges are now obliged to take account of the superior judgements of the Strasbourg court, even where they conflict with the Common Law, and to interpret UK legislation in a way which is compatible with the Convention.

So, perhaps the Prime Minister or Equalities Minister Lynne Featherstone might care to clarify this point for us? Parliament insists that 'gay marriage' will not be imposed upon the religious; the European Court of Human Rights says that it will. Who is right? Who is telling the truth? Which opinion of law prevails? 

Of course, we already know the answer to this question. The Coalition for Marriage (C4M - advertising above) are uniting Christians, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs and people of no faith to make it known that marriage - consisting of one man and one woman - is a respected institution, a sacred one, indeed, a sacrament, and its definition must be preserved. The consequences for religious liberty in the introduction of same-sex marriage are profoundly worrying and deeply dangerous.

Okay now you made it clear you are not really standing with Gerald as you stated in your earlier statement Sarah but there is something still wrong with your answer you see we all have a personal relationship but yet still we ought to also be one body and to take the view you are giving it is every man for himself I am afraid as believers we dont have that option we need to help each other to get to that place you see separately we are divided and that is where satn gets to creep in however when we are in unity we are strong satan has no way in. 

The other thing is if you are ordain by God to be one of His shepherd you dont get to go your own way and leave the sheeps to the slaughter that is what an hireling do not what a shepherd do and this is not just about the gays and the ministers this is about the people of the land the ones who are weak, who are easily led who will soon believe the lie and soon will believe this is a only and natural thing of God.

So you my dear have to decide which side you are on the body of Christ or a separatist because as one body the arm cannot do without the foot neither the head without the hand.

Gods people are called by him and yes there are tears amongst God people as well as false teachers and false prophet but that does not mean you get to work single handed you need to come together and work for the Kingdom and that means uniting as one body.

We have all been separate for too long that is why we are so divided satan played us against each other indidivually not we need to stand untited together , the sheep cannot remain scattered and left to fend for itself they must be gathered together and protected.

Actually on reading this thread there are a lot of things being said and two things that I see are being confused badly. First off I have to agree with what Gerald is saying in that there is a difference between a Biblically correct marriage and a civil union.

I also want to add that a real marriage is something that is ordained by God and not man even though that man in recent years in the so called church perform marriages that have not been ordained by God even with straight people. Many today in the Christian church perform marriages not ordained by God, but put together by man, which is really scary. Well to me anyway.

I don't think if we are God's people we have a right to control what others do. If we are God's people we get to serve even the least of the least, which means as God is even a servant to the servant then to be one of His people then we also must be a servant to the servant, which does not mean either that we can be forced by law to perform a marriage ceremony for just anyone that comes a long. 

I mean Christianity attempts to tell people whether gay or buddist or muslim what marriage is to mean to them, which is really a big error. Christianity is in error about many things including Christianity as it is not even found in any scripture. It says that in Antioch that people called them Christians, but the ones calling them Christians were pagans. Peter did not say call yourself a Christian, but said don't be ashamed to be called a Christian and Agrippa a Pagan King thought Paul was trying to get him to go to Christianity. Christianity's position has always been one of taking the land and putting others down for what they believe.

Paul' point where he said there was neither Jew or Greek or Gentile was not that we are supposed to be Christian but are to represent the love and will of God and that we are all ministers of the Gospel, all ambassadors for Christ and all a royal priesthood. Christianity attempts to say one is a minister and the other is not a minister, which is an error. The only differentiation is in the five fold gift ministry which are some are called to be Apostles, some Prophets, some Evangelists, some Pastors and some Teachers (or in the Jewish Rabbi's), but not to be over people but to be in a supportive role as God is the servant of the servant and the closer we are to God the more of a servant we are to be. 

Christianity in its attempt to usurp authority has told everyone that the US is going to hell in a hand basket if certain people can be married. Truth is according to God is a Muslim married or Buddhist or one of the other groups that exist? No! To Christianity only Christians are of God, even though it does not say that in scripture. Truth is only through Jesus can one get to God. I agree, but I one of God's people do not have a right to control what others do or believe because of free will which is given by God to all people and if I am to be of God then I have to represent His love and will to all people equally. 

The facts are there are wedding chapels in many areas of the country, which may or may not have anything to do with God and His will, but has to do with someone calling themselves a minster performing marriages, sending people in a very bad direction. Salvation really is about knowing God's plan and doing everything we can to walk in His plan for each of us individually; however salvation has been reduced to simply "believing on is saved."

Should a couple desiring to be married and it is not ordained by God then they according to God are not married and man just because he or she has a license to perform a marriage does not make that couple married. Only God can make a marriage work. It is nice of people cooperate, but only God can make the marriage work if it is a marriage of God, which is part of the salt covenant.

A civil union is not recognized in all the US. A civil union is only legal where it is legal for straights or gay or Muslim. In other words in some cities if one is gay they can have a civil union, which has nothing to do with something ordained by God. Which is greater God's laws or man's laws. Even if man created a law that says we have to perform marriages for everyone, we could not anyway as we are to be of God and represent His will. The law is not over God. Christianity is asserting in error, that those in the clergy in Christianity will have to perform marriages for gays or Muslims or Buddhists equally. I mean lets just make stuff up? Good grief!

Your words are eloquent and thoughtful.

But what Angela is saying in her simple way, along with the hordes of  national and international denominations gathering together against this now; is that this is the first stage of a legitimate threat forming against us. 

Just last week, 34,000 Interdenominational Churches formed a new coalition after finding reason enough of a threat.  They never before crossed racial, doctrinal lines, and have no gain in indulging some mass hysteria . 

Another coalition of Jews, Evangelicals, Assemblies of God, Missionary, Southern and National Baptists, COGIC, Wesleyans, Catholics, and midwestern district NAACP affiliates, etc. are forming two separate national marches on Washington to speak up before our holy scripture is thrown out like an old text book.   "Legal Councils of Cardinals and Bishops probably are a little too educated, and have been through enough of these battles to be  'screaming 'the sky is falling' for no reason.   Is everyone making up the imaginary slope/threat this issue is perched upon?

One sure message is being sent to PBO and this agenda, . . we will not go along quietly into the night like sheep to the slaughter.  We are Christian soldiers being told the bible teaches hate and should be silenced.  By law, if necessary.  We're being forced into a fight we never wanted.  Messages of love by way of repentance have been soundly rejected.  Its their way or the highway, not God's way.

Who in their right mind would trust them to not demand total compliance of Christian/Jewish houses of worship to their edits?  Double good grief.


Now Sarah my dear I am well aware there is a difference between civil marriage and Biblical marriage one of them is ordain by God and the other by satan. Now the question is why is it so important for gays to want their marriage approved by God, after all if they believe in God they would not want to do what is clearly an abomination to God. When one believes in God then there is a desire to please God. 


What I am finding difficult to understand is how both you and Gerald say you are believers yet you think nothing about finding for the equals of those that want to cause an abomination but think nothing of the lost of freedom for believers who want to walk in the way of God without being involved in that which cause an abomination.


And in case my dears you did not understand the article that I posted the crust of it is the Europeon Union are ones who can neither overturn or uphold a hold even after the High Court has rule not sure if it is higher that your supreme court but being the highest in Europe they are actually warning Europe to think carefully about pass the law that legalise gay marriages because if they do then they will not have any choice but to uphold that no one regardless of religion can refuse to conduct gay marriages. The highest court in the land is say do not go down that route because if you do you will regret it so we are telling you from now if gay marriages is legalise then there will be criminal consequence for anyone who refuse to conduct same.


Gays are getting married in UK their civil marriages is recognize.  So what then would the benefit be for them to be biblically married as you call it.  There is no Biblical reference to marryng gay so it is not for Biblical reason, the only reason they want it is a means of persecution believers of Christ, it is the plans of the enemy.


I can provide blical reference against Homosexuality what Biblical reference can you give to support gay marriages or for believers to support gay marriages or even for believers to marry gays.


Genesis 2 :24

Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother and shall cleave unto his WIFE; and they shall be one flesh.


Show me the passage that says a man should leave his parents and cleave to his husband


Levitcus 18:22


Thus shalt not lie with makind as with womankind: it is an abomination .


Show me the passage that says it is okay for believers to aid an abet in what is an abomination  or one that says it is okay for a man to lie with a man. In fact show me a biblical Scripture where a marriage took place between a man and a man or where it is decree that it is okay for a man and a man to be together.


Romans 1:26-27

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their woman did change the natural use into which is against nature:  And likewise also men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one towards another; men working that which which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which is meet.


1 Corinthians 6:9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, NOR ABUSERS OF THEMSELVES WITH MANKIND.

You see Sarah you sit there and blame the church for what Obama is saying yet you are agreeing with Gerald that the church should sit and do nothing, you cannot say the church is at fault for doing nothing and yet when the church begins to make a stand say that it is not a fight for the church. 

You see you and Gerald is missing the bigger picture you both need to stop looking through rose coloured glasses at what you can see with your fleshly eyes and look beyond into the distance future with a spiritual eye at the outcome of this action and the others to come if this get through, it is time to wake up, believers this is not the time to fall asleep get up choose your road.  The book of revelation makes it clear that even believers will fall away, they will take the easier option and they are the ones that will not make it to the kingdom because when you side with the devil and believe me you really need to study to word of God because one of the things the anti christ will do is to change doctrines as well as times and seasons, he will have every one believe the unnatuaral is natural and right at this moment there are ant christ agents at work preparing the ground so choose your sides and choose very carefully because there is consequence involved

 Sarah in your own words you say we are suppose to be ministers of the Gospel , Gods people if I have that correct why then do you believe we should accept satans rule because when you state you believe what Gerald say and he is saying that Obama is correct that we should shut up and allow our minister to be manupilated into committing abomination then I have to group you with him because in my book anyone who side with the devil is against God and if you are against God then as I believer I have to be against you



This is a reply to both Brother Phil and to Angela Loundes of which I would have put it under your comments, but the system does not allow that, so the next best place is to put it here and hopefully you will find the response? Maybe?

To attempt to answer the questions or statements you have made I would like you to understand that it was not man that ordained me, but God that ordained me. The statement I made was not about right and wrong. It was not about whether gays should or should not be married. If one preaches in a church a pastor can influence those that go to that church and the pastor is responsible to God for the congregation in the path that the pastor takes the congregation. In other words I am to teach and preach and care for the needs of those that God has place in my hands.

What the gays or Muslims or gays or Jews, Evangelicals, Assemblies of God, Missionary, Southern and National Baptists, COGIC, Wesleyans, Catholics, and midwestern district NAACP affiliates, etc.Is really between them and God. I have no right to tell any of them what to do or what they should believe or not believe or accept. The authority which I carry is not given by any of those groups that were mentioned. The authority that I have is from God as He is the one that ordained me, which is why I wrote what I wrote.

The law cannot demand that a perform a marriage ceremony for Muslims or any of the other groups that are there. The law is not my authority, but God. The law cannot make me perform a Muslim wedding ceremony for I only know so much about Muslims and frankly it is not enough for me to be able to perform that type of ceremony for example.

What I teach and preach simply is that marriage is something that is ordained by God and not man. It is God that makes the marriage covenant and not me and if you think about it that is really what a marriage is, making the two one, by the hand of God and only God can do that. God either makes the two hearts as one or He doesn't. I mean when I am asked to perform a marriage ceremony I do not go to God and try to convince God that He should do this really "neat thing." I say to God "how should I do this or should I do this," and to some people surprise I do not do it unless God shows me what to do or what to say.

What other people do in their churches or denominations is between them and God. I have no idea why a Catholic marries another or why a Mennonite marries another or even what to say to them? Honest really! 

Now if there is a law that is passed that now says that I have to perform a marriage ceremony for a Catholic, Mennonite or Muslim, then I guess I will be in jail as I am not qualified to hold a ceremony for others. I am only allowed by God to perform the marriage ceremony to those He sends me and only if He shows me what to do or what to say. I cannot expect others to live to that standard or do what I do, but what is required of me (maybe not other ministers, I do not know), is that I am required to represent the love and will of God.

So here is a really good question and it begs asking, "are we ordained by God or men," because if we are ordained by men then men control what we do. If we are ordained by a denomination then we are required to represent the denomination. I do not and will not perform civil ceremonies as God has never given me permission regardless of any law that man might pass. My choice if I petition the government then I am saying that the government has authority over me. I do not recognize that and honestly those ordained of God should not either. That is not meant to give offense.

We are all in a spot today to figure our exactly where we are with God (or at least that is what I see). We either stand and God is the authority or we give that authority to governments. Having said that, if one is a 501c3 church then it can be taken away from you if this law is passed, but if we are a 501c3 church then we given authority not by God, but by man to operate. That as I see it is the real issue of what is all behind this (but then again, that is just how I see things).

We if we are from God should not be tied to government or have covenant with governments. The arguments used by Angela are accurate if we do not have covenant or 501c3 covenant with the government. What has happened is that many in the church have gone in that direction and that is the real problem and they will loose, because the building was in part paid for by the government and when that happens then the government becomes partners with the church and clearly that is not something we should do.

The argument really is with ourselves if we have entered covenant with the government, but it is like Israel before the first time Jesus showed up. Israel entered covenant with Rome. They had the power of God. They did not stand in faith in that power and authority. The church has done the same thing by entering covenant with the government and the only way out is not to petition the government for relief, but to go to God in repentance.

I said all of that to attempt to try and explain my original comment and why I made the comment the way I did.

Is the NAACP President of one of the most influenctial country on earth and what is being black got to do with it when you are a follower of Christ you shpuld not be differentiating people by colour because in Christ there is no distinction. What you should be looking at is that what is an abomination to God ought also to be to those who profess to be followers.

That my dear should be your number one priority, God is my priority not man. God can do everything for me what can man do for me that I should put him over God

Dear Sister:

Good word. 

But frankly, I'm at a loss as to how to convey over to some unsaved/uncommitted people what the real issue is for many of us.  Those souls who don't understand that some of us really live for and love Christ above all else; with our frailties, shortcomings and all.  

Please, let us pray for this sad world. 

Angela you are on Black preaching network? 


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