Sex ( Why are Christians afraid to have honest discussions about it?)

[Pastor Michael Samuels]

Sex, historically has been a bad word in the body of Christ, I mean from the stand point of having real, honest and open conversation about it from a biblical, emotional, sensual and natural point of view. However, christians, including pastors seemingly have more problems with sex than those who practice sin as a lifestyle. We who are called to uphold a standard for the world have just as many if not more problems around sexual issues than the world.

We MUST have deeper, wiser and more real discussion, teaching and preaching concerning this issue so that people will be well informed so that each of us can make decisions that help us to marry partners that have the same sexual desires, appetite and inclination as long as they remain within a frame that God can honor. God does not want us to have frigid sexual relationships with a spouse but He also doesn't want an anything goes sexual relationships. He wants us to have balance yet more freedoms than the church has been willing to discuss. Hopefully this will decrease the number of divorces in the church.
+ What do you think?

[PASTOR CHARLES E BELL JR]

AH IM FROM MISSIPPI WE SAY OFF THE WALL CHAIN HAVE TO MANY LHOLES IN IT TX BOY. LOL

[PASTOR CHARLES E BELL JR]

MUST BE LATE YOU ARE REPEATING YOUSELF BUSBY LOL

[John]

Brother Busby, you and Brother James are taking scripture and reading something into it that isn't there. Matthew 22:30 only says (Jesus' Words) that we after the resurrection will neither marry nor are given in marriage but are as the angels of God in heaven. Explain to me how you get this means they are sexless and can't have sex nor reproduce. When angels appear to man/woman they appear as men. There is no place in the Bible that says angels are sexless or can't reproduce. Look at Genesis 6:2; That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. Now the sons of God are the fallen angels and it states they too them wives of all which they chose. This means the angels took wives, now whether they married them as we like to think of marriage is another thing. I doubt that they did just as man in the old days didn't marry as we think of marriage today with laberish wedding ceremonies that have nothing to do with being spiritual this is another man's tradition so that vendors for wedding gowns, tuxs, cakes, rings, limos, and paying the pastor to marry you can make their money. I don't believe God could care less about marriage being an event for show. You can jump over a broom and declare yourself to be married if you choose as long as you honor that vow to one another. Sorry got off track. Now look at Genesis 6:4; There were giants/nephilim/mighty or fallen ones in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. This shows the sons of God (fallen ones/angels) came in unto the daughters of men (sexual) and bare children, the giants/nephilim/mighty or fallen ones. God saw in verse 5 that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. This is what produced the great flood to destroy what the fallen angels did. These offspring caused demons to exist when they died and those demons need human form to enter. The angels don't enter into human forms but do/can enter into our minds to cause us to do terrible things if we are not protected with the full armour and in Christ Jesus and He in us. These offspring of the fallen angels and woman certainly didn't worship God and had idols. As Brother Watchman stated there were Og, Anak, Goliath and others that came out of that union. Anyway none of us should try to interpret God's Word but let God's Word speak for Itself. God bless you Brother and I did wonder if you and Sister Tracy got married when I saw her last name as yours. Congrats to you both and I pray that the Lord will lead and guide you both together. Much love and respect.

[Pastor Michael Samuels]

Good morning men and women of God. I have read most of the discussion. It is good, very good. I share one of many thoughts that I have and that is, Proverbs 3:1-8. The Holy Spirit is the one who confirms truth if we would just ask Him. Sometimes in our humaness we fail to invite Him into our thought process and sometimes lean onto our own understanding. Keep the conversation going. It is good and very thought provoking. Now only if we can take this conversation into the walls of the church...LOL

[Eric Hancock]

the church wont receive it because to them it is a sinful discussion,,but,,how do they think that they have gotten here?? and how do they think that there kids came here? then why is it that when the topic came up,,everyone wanted to grab a rope and seek a tall tree to hang me from??LOL

[Eric Hancock]

And Brother James Pierce is correct ANGELS CANNOT PRODUCE,there are no family of angels meaning husband ,wife two kids and DOG

[Eric Hancock]

Matthew 22:29-30

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."
"Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."
"But Jesus answered them, You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."

King James Version
New International Version
Revised Standard Version

Looking carefully and without a preconceived notion, we see that Jesus said that the angels "in heaven" DO NOT marry (nor presumably - have sex, reproduce). He did not state that angels "in general" CAN NOT do so. An unmarried Christian who - like the angels of God in heaven - wishes to remain obedient to God's will, "does not" have sex, but not because he or she is physically incapable of doing so.

That angels cannot have sex would be a fair interpretation of this passage, if this were the only passage in scripture that came close to dealing with the topic. It is not however, and therefore any interpretation of this scripture will be in accord with all else that is written. Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4-6 clearly indicate that the sin of these angels was sexual in nature, affirming the hybrid understanding of Genesis 6.

When they "shape-shift," angels can appear like perfectly normal humans (Heb 13:2). We know from the Old Testament that they not only appear human, but that they can eat food as well (Genesis 18:6-8; 19:3. In fact, angels eat when in their "normal" state - Psalm 78:24-25 tells us that manna is the "food of angels"). There is no reason to assume that angels do not contain all the physical properties of a normal human being, when assuming human form. However, they are not human, which goes a long way towards understanding why their children were "superhuman" (known as the heroes of old, men of renown, legends, Titans, Giants... depending upon your Bible translation.)

While far-fetched or disturbing to some, Matthew 22:30 simply does not dogmatically infer that sexual reproduction is a physical impossibilty for angelic beings. In fact, since Jesus specified the angels "in heaven," one would have to go beyond what is actually written (AND ignore what else IS written) to state that angels that ARE NOT in heaven - fallen - seeking to thwart God's purposes - CAN NOT have sex.

As Jesus said above, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures..." Taken as a whole, the entire body of scripture indicates otherwise.

Which brings up the question, WHY would they do so?

"...the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful..." Gen 6:2 NIV

Quite simply, "lust" would be the most obvious and scriptural answer.

However, there are at least two reasons that are a little more speculative, but quite scriptural as well.

[Child of the Kingdom]

Brother are you statiing that James is correct in saying angels cannot reproduce according to Matthew. But that other scriptures show that they can reproduce when taking on a human form? Please clarify your post.

[James Pierce]

EW,

Show us scripture where it says that angels took on human form to have sex? Showing Genesis 6 does not prove that, because Giants have a different meaning in Hebraic thought.

[James Pierce]

EW,

It is commonly believed that the Nephilim were fallen angels who had intercourse with human females in Noah’s time and produced a race of giants. The apparent intention of this reference is to highlight the disordered affairs of men and justify the destruction brought by Noah's flood.

However, this interpretation of Genesis 6:4 poses many difficulties. Those who hold to a worldwide flood must explain how there continued to be Nephilim after the time of Noah if all were destroyed in the Flood? Also, angels were not created to sexually reproduce. Jesus states that the angels neither marry nor are given in marriage. There is also the evidence of the words “and also afterwards” which suggest that a story about the time of Noah has been conflated with a story from Numbers 13:33: “there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, which come of the Nephilim”.

The intepretation of fallen angels rests on the assumption that the word nephilim is the masculine plural participle of Hebrew naphal, meaning to fall, but this is not conclusive. In the Book of Daniel the Aramaic term used to denote angels is "watchers" (`îrîn). Each is also called "watcher and holy one" (`îr weqadîsh). The term "watcher" implies that angels are to act as God's sentinels, as were the angels appointed to guard the entrance to Eden.

These watchers appear in literature that post-dates the earliest material in Genesis. They are mentioned in Vedic (Sanskrit) texts which tell of gods begetting children with humans. They appear in the Epic of Gilgamesh, in the Lamech scrolls, and in The Book of Enoch which states that 200 "Watchers" descended to earth in the time of Jared and instructed men in the arts and sciences. The term appears in the book of Daniel which has a Babylonian context.

The evidence then points to a gloss on the text by someone versed in extra-biblical Babylonian texts. This conception of the Nephilim isn't consistent with the worldview of the African Noah. However, because both the Babylonians and Abraham's people are Afro-Asiatics, there must be some points of contact and an older layer that points to Africa. This is found in the hint that the watchers might be ancestor spirits or the souls of deified persons. In this view the word nephil is related to the Hebrew nefesh (soul) and to the Swahili nafsi (soul).

An "ancestor" in traditional African religion is someone who died a good death, practiced the traditions of his people and faithfully transmitted them to his descendants. A first-born son is most likely to become an ancestor because he is able to maintain the chain of the generation in a long genealogy.This African view of the nephilim fits the author's identification of the nephilim with the gibborim or "heroes of old" who are "men of renown" (Gen. 6:4). These rulers were regarded as "sons of God", as was the case with the rulers of ancient Egypt who were required to make a pilgrimage to "The Land of the Gods" prior to their ascent to the throne. They are believed to have the power to visit their descendents in dreams and visions and to interceed for them in death.

Peoples of central Africa believe that the greater a ruler in life, the more powerful his spirit after death. Deified ancestor rulers stand between the living and the Creator. The spirits of righteous ancestor rulers continue after death to seek good for their people. Malevolent spirits bring evil and can "sleep" with human women. In west Africa these dream visitors are called 'night husbands' or 'spirit husbands.' (The Latins of antiquity similarly believed in sexual encounters with incubi and succubi.) The African notion is the more primitive layer and the most likely background for Genesis 6:1-4.

Consider Tswana poet Gabriel M. Setiloane's words:

Ah, . . . yes . . . it is true.
They are very present with us
The dead are not dead; they are ever near us;
Approving and disapproving all our actions,
They chide us when we go wrong,
Bless us and sustain us for good deeds done,
For kindness shown, and strangers made to feel at home.
They increase our store, and punish our pride.

[Excerpt from "How the Traditional World-View Persists in the Christianity of the Sotho-Tswana," in Christianity in Independent Africa, Edward Fashole-Luke, ed., Indiana University Press, 1978, p. 407].

This description of watching ancestors fits the Genesis depiction of the Nephilim as the "heroes of old" or "men of renown". A 2008 discovery in southeastern Turkey of the funeral stele of a royal official indicates that Afro-Asiatic peoples believed the soul of the ancestor survives after death. The Aramaic word for soul that appears on the stele is "nabsh". Aramaic was spoken throughout northern Syria and parts of Mesopotamia in the eighth century BC.

It is clear that the Nephilim relates to human ancestors, not to angelic beings. The question remains: are Daniel's "watchers" angels or deified ancestors?

[James Pierce]

Rev,

What stumbling block?

[James Pierce]

Rev,

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