Who is the REAL God of the Old Testament? Part 1

[Eccl. 12:13]

Who is the God of the Old Testament?


Why is it so important that we know who the God of the Old Testament is? After all, it seems quite clear that God the Father is what was taught to us as the God of the Old Testament, right? Well, let’s search to see if that is really what God‘s Holy scriptures says!



Has Anyone seen God the Father?

St. John 1: 18 – No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Notice the distinction that is made in the above verses? Both Jesus and the apostle John referred to God as, God the Father. According to the scriptures, NO MAN HAS SEEN NOR HEARD GOD THE FATHER AT ANY TIME. let’s remember who made (2) of those statements…..JESUS!!! Now let’s search the scriptures of the OT.


This CAN NOT be the Father….so who is it?

Exd 24: 9 – 11. 9. Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Exd 33: 11 – And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

Exd 33: 23 – And I will take mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


Num 12: 6-8. 6. And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all my house.

8. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold:


Now after reading these scriptures it seems very evident that, not only did Moses see and hear the voice of the God of Israel, but at least seventy-three people saw and heard him.

Let’s review:

In St. John we found that no man has seen God the Father, heard his voice nor seen his shape at anytime.

In Exodus and Numbers we found that Moses and at least seventy other elders saw and eat with the God of Isreal.

So what do we have here? Jesus himself said, no man has seen God the Father and the Old Testament says that Moses and at least seventy elders saw God. Could this be a contradiction? God forbid! Let’s continue to search the scriptures for the truth.



Searching for the ‘God’ of the OT

Now most of us have been taught that Jesus and God the Father are both Gods, but have you ever read it for yourself in the bible? Can you prove it through the scriptures?

Let’s start in the book of Philippians (NT) 2: 5-8. Here, Paul is talking to the Philippians and telling them to have the same mind as Christ has.

Phil 2:5-8. 5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

So here we have Paul telling us that Jesus, a God, found it not wrong to be equal with God, obviously God the Father. The reason I can say that is because Jesus is the one that became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Now let’s go to St. John (NT) to get a better understanding of these two (2) Gods. Yes….these TWO Gods!!!!!

St. John 1:1-4,14 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

2. The same was in the beginning with God.

3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4. In him was life; and the life was the life of men.

14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So now after reading in St. John we can understand why the statement in Philippians is true.

Jesus (The Word) did not think it wrong to be equal to God because, according to St. John1:1, he was God.

And how do I know that the Word is Jesus Christ? Because verse 14 tells us that “, the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.” And the Word, in St. John, is the same person that, “.,became obedient unto the death, even the death of the cross.” in Phil 2:8.

Now there was one thing I hope you did not miss. Who was it that made everything that was made? That’s right! It was the Word. And who is the Word? Jesus Christ. Now let’s go to Colossians (NT) to confirm this.

In this book we have Paul addressing the Colossians and encouraging them to stay strong in the faith, but not before letting them know whom it is that they should be thanking:

Col1:12-17 12. Giving thanks to the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:

16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.

17. And he is above all things, and by him all things consist.

So it is through, “…his dear SON…”, “…ALL things were created….” Need more proof?

Here are two more scriptures:

Hebrews (1:1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
(2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

Ephesians (3:9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Obviously Paul is telling the listeners the exact same thing St John said. And what he is saying is that the person that we have come to know as the Word, or Jesus Christ, is the one that created everything. Now this is very important. Let’s reason together for a moment and review the facts we’ve found in the scriptures.

We know that Jesus Christ is God and found it not robbery to be equal to God the Father. (NT) Phil 2:6.

We know that Jesus humbled himself and became obedient unto the death of the cross. (NT) Phil 2:8.

We know that the Word (Jesus Christ) was God, was made flesh and dwelt among us. (NT) St. John 1: 1 & 14.

And finally we know that the Word made everything that was made. “ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. (NT) Col 12:16.

Now at this point it should be quite clear as to what these scriptures are saying, but just incase you are not following them here it is in a nutshell:

Jesus Christ, also known as the Word, created everything that was created and he is a GOD!!

[Eccl. 12:13]

I never said one was above the the other, the scriptures says they are EQUAL! Let's read it again;

Phil 2:5-8. 5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Again I ask you, if you believe that Yeshua is not a supreme God like Yahweh, then what is he to you?

I take it you DO believe He is a God, because of your statement, "not a God supreme like Yahweh...", but a God none the less.

Maybe my question should be, "Do you believe the words of the NT are the inspired word of God?"

[Eccl. 12:13]

Who says one HAS to be above the other? I never said that, nor does the scriptures. But here IS what the scriptures say:

Phil 2:5-8. 5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

One is NOT above the other....they are EQUAL!!!


And again, the reason God said that there was no other God before Him is because, He was the ONLY God they have ever had any dealings with.

What you are not getting is that Yahshua IS THE GOD OF THE OT, and Yahweh has NEVER BEEN SEEN OR HEARD.

Man has ONLY dealt with Yahshua!

[Eccl. 12:13]

Did not read all of your blog, but I intend to. I do have a question for you. You said the following. "I believe in both parts of the book "the new and old testament", plus the other books that man decided to delete from it's volume."

If that is true then you MUST belive that Yahshua (Jesus) is the maker of ALL things. Let's read it;

Hebrews (1:1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
(2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

According to the above it was Yahweh, that appointed Yahshua heir of all things and BY WHOM also he made the worlds. So the worlds were made by Yahshua. Let's read more;

Ephesians (3:9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Again, ALL THINGS were made by Yahshua. Let's read some more;


Col1:12-17 12. Giving thanks to the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

So from this point on the scripture is talking about Yahshua. Notice what Yahshua did;

14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

We have redemption and forgiveness of sin because of Yahshua.

15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:

Yahshua is the image of God the Father and the first-born of every creature.

16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.

It is by Yahshua ALL THINGS WERE CREATED! They were created by him and for him.

17. And he is above all things, and by him all things consist.

Yahshua is above ALL THINGS, and by him ALL THINGS consist.

This is what my lesson is all about. Yahshua IS ths God of the OT!!!

That is if you do believe in both the OT and NT like you said in you blog!!!

[N'ZI Amani Germain]

Brother,

What is your name?

Indeed, I'd like to tell you that this discussion(the Divinity of Jesus Christ) has already been discussed.

This is what I believe:

YAHSHUA THE MESSIAH (JESUS) IS THE ONE TRUE GOD, YAHWEH ALMIGHTY, THE LORD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT, THE HEAVENLY FATHER!

YAHWEH OF THE OLD TESTAMENT IS JESUS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.

Please, see the link below:

http://www.blackpreachingnetwork.com/forum/topics/916966:Topic:159914

Besides, you said:

"...Now here’s something to think about. Who was it who really gave us all of those LAWS? It was the same one that said the following: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Matt. 19:17
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14

Hebrews 13: 8. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.
T
hat verse takes on a whole new meaning now!!!! "


Now, please,tell me, when you say: "those LAWS", are you referring to the TORAH or to the LAW OF CHRIST?

Indeed, Jesus said:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

Matthew 5:27-28

In one hand, when Jesus said “You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery”, He was referring to the TORAH.

In the other hand, when He said: " BUT I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart", He was referring to the new convenant which Christians should apply.

Isn'’t the new law of Christ better than the former law?

“Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ”.

Galatians 6:2

If a Christian fulfils the law of Christ(the new convenant) according to which we must not look at a woman lustfully for fear of committing adultery with her in our heart, will that Christian be considered lawless or an evil doer before Jesus according to Mathew 7: 21-23?

The lawless one, THE EVIL DOER, isn’t it the one who still get stuck on the former law, the first one which has been made obsolete and aging will soon disappear (Hebrews 8:13)?

Blessings,

Bro. Germain

[Eccl. 12:13]

Let's stay with what is being said. Heb.8:13 does NOT say, the Law is made obsolete and aging. Here is what it says;

Heb.8
[13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Paul says a new COVENANT, NOT a new LAW!

And what is a covenant?
1. a solemn agreement: a solemn agreement that is binding on all parties

So it is a new agreement that is to be made. Let's read into the next chap.;

Heb.9
[1] Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

So now we see that the 'old' agreement had a set of particular laws...not ALL 613, but 'ordinances of divine service' Now what was the law that required service, or 'WORK'? Let's read;

[2] For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

So the law being spoken of that is part of the 'old covenant' had a tabernacle.

[3] And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
[4] Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

And this law of divine service had a veil.

[6] Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
[7] But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

And this law required that the priest go into the tabernacle to perform their duties, and once a year the performed special sacrifices.

[11] But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
[12] Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

But when Christ came, His blood became a better sacrifice.

[15] And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

So now we see that by death, Christ is the mediator of a new testament, and the old one is gone.

So what ended when Christ died? Was it the Law? NO!!! Christ death and shedding of blood ended 'the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary." ANIMAL SACRIFICE!!!!

[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So what the preist did ONCE a year to forgive the people of their sins, Christ also did ONCE when He died and shed His blood. Now let's go into the next chapter. Notice Paul is STILL talking about the same thing. The topic has not changed!

Heb.10
[1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

What law? Paul tells us; 'can never with those SACRIFICES...make the comers thereunto perfect. Again, Paul IS ONLY talking about the law of animal sacrifice. Let's continue;

[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

So the law, that required devine service/work, that was done ONCE a year, could not take away sin.

[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

And who is 'this man' that Paul speak of? None other than Christ! Now look waht Paul says next;

[16] This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Now what laws could Paul be talking about? The ones that are in our minds, that tell us not to steal, not to lie, not to lust, not to kill.....yeah...those laws!

So which laws were nailed to the cross? Let's read it;

Col.2
[14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Now didn't we just read about a set of 'divine ordinances' that were part of the 'old covenant'? And did not those set of laws require service, or 'WORK' to be done both daily and once a year? And wasn't that law just a 'shadow of things to come' until Christ offered His body ONCE for our sins?

Sounds like the same set of laws to me.

Now what about this whole, 'against us, and contrary to us' thing?

Well what set of laws COULD NOT TAKE AWAY SIN? That's right....you are on the right track now....the law of ANIMAL SACRIFICES!!!!

Now let's read what happened when Christ died;

Matt.27
[50] Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Christ died and the veil was ripped in two.

Such a small detail, but God made sure it was repeated in Mark and Luke.

The moment Christ died there was no more need for the preist to perform their 'divine duties'. At that moment Christ became our HIGH PRIEST!!

(Check out my post, "What was the Law that was Changed)

So to recap:

1. The old covenant had a set of laws.
2. The law required the preist to perform daily and yearly sacrifices/works.
3. The law was only a shadow of things to come.
4. When Christ came He became a better sacrifice and He too did it only
ONCE!
5. The Law of killing bulls and goats was against us and contrary to us
because they could not take away our sins.
6. The moment Christ died the veil of the temple was torn in two.
7. Christ nailed the Law of ANIMAL SACRIFICE to His cross!!!

I pray God will allow someone to understand this. For only God can remove the delusion and have you stop believing a lie;

2Thes.2
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


Peace in the name of Jesus!!!

[Eccl. 12:13]

And now that I've had a little to think about it here's something else for you to answer;

Not only that but let's read the following;

Rev.4
[1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
[2] And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Now just think about this for a moment.....WHO is "the one" that is setting in the Throne in Heaven? Let's read more;

[8] And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
[9] And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Now these (4) beast give glory and honour to the one that is setting on the throne....again....who is he? Let's read more, let's go into the next chap.;

Rev.5
[1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
[2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

So the one setting on the throne in heaven, who was praised is holding a book. Let's continue;

[5] And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Now who is this Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David? It CAN'T be the one one the throne!! It MUST be ANOTHER entity! Let's read and confirm this;

[7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

So there ARE TWO!!! Let's read further;

[13] And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Did you catch that? "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, AND unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Again I ask you...."Who does The Lamb of God take the book from? "Who is the one sitting on the Throne?"

Let's read some more to confirm;

Rev.21
[22] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Again we have TWO!!! throughout the WHOLE bible we have TWO!! Now just how do YOU get ONLY ONE!!!

If you need more scriptures proving this I have LOTS! But first if you could answer my question that would be great!!

[N'ZI Amani Germain]

Brother,

I thank you for your answer,

You said:

"Let's stay with what is being said. Heb.8:13 does NOT say, the Law is made obsolete and aging. Here is what it says; Heb.8
[13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Paul says a new COVENANT, NOT a new LAW!"

Now, would you be so kind as to explain me the following verse?

"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God".

Hebrews 7:18-19

What was the former regulation which had been set aside?

What is a REGULATION?

Blessings,

Bro. Germain

[Superintendent Elijah Marshall]

Praise the Lord...

Ummm..... I have heard a lot of heresy and false doctrine concerning Jesus our Lord... in the aspect that some of you are saying that Jesus Christ is not God, and some of you are saying He is not the One God of the Old Testament, and some of you are saying that God is 2 persons or that there is 2 persons in the Godhead... those are ridicolous and outrageous claims. If there is but only One God, and there is.... Jesus Christ HAS TO BE that One true God, because Only God himself can save and deliver from sin, no other person is worthy!! Jesus is God manifested in the flesh, the One God of the Old Testament that comes to save HIS PEOPLE from their sin; no other blood sacrifice would have been acceptable, and only God could be absolutely perfect without sin at the time before JESUS showed up, so JESUS is the God of the Old Testament. Many people have not come into this revelation because of traditions and doctrine of men, being passed down through the ages about a so-called Trinity. Just because He is not revealed to us as JESUS in the Old Testament, does not mean HE IS NOT the God of the Old Testament. Remember, Isaiah declared that there is no other Savior besides God; the Word of God says the God himself said HE DOESNT KNOW ANY OTHER SAVIOR, BUT HIMSELF! Jesus name means God-- Jehovah is Salvation -- To insinuate that Jesus is not the God of the Old Testament revealed to us in flesh, is to say that He is a seperate person from God, and that is not so dear people for there is only ONE! John declares in Revelation that He saw a throne sitting in the midst of Heaven, and that there was ONE sitting on the throne and later He declares that the one sitting on the throne was called Faithful and True; Revelation declares that the name of the Faithful and True is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the One God! I think it is hard for man to accept this because when we look at Jesus we get his humanity and divinity confused... As a man, the Son of God, according to the flesh, of course He prayed to the Father (to present himself an example to us of how we should be towards our Heavenly Father), but according to the Spirit, He was God and is God Almighty... He was on Earth as the Son, and in Heaven as the Father at the same time according to John 3:13.. And remember Nathanael in the same Gospel of John that Jesus saw in chapter 1 verses 45-50; Jesus declared that He saw Nathanael before he physically showed up in front of Jesus, and how is that possible when Jesus was in one place the whole time and never physically moved, EXCEPT HE BE IN HEAVEN AS WELL?? As God, He walked on top of the water and calmed storms, which only God could do before Jesus came to live on the inside of us and now does through us?? Sometimes, we focus on His humanity so much that we dismiss His divinity, and sometimes we confuse His divinity so much it blurs His Sonship...

-Blessings
Pastor E

[Eccl. 12:13]

You did not read my lesson did you? Well here it is in a nutshell:

Jesus and John said the following;

St. John 1: 18 – No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.


And this is what was recorded in the OT;

Exd 24: 9 – 11. 9. Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Now if you say Jesus is the ONLY God, "Did Jesus LIE when He said NO man has EVER seen God?" Because clearly a God was seen in the OT!!

Not only that but let's read the following;

Rev.4
[1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
[2] And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Now just think about this for a moment.....WHO is "the one" that is setting in the Throne in Heaven? Let's read more;

[8] And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
[9] And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Now these (4) beast give glory and honour to the one that is setting on the throne....again....who is he? Let's read more, let's go into the next chap.;

Rev.5
[1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
[2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

So the one setting on the throne in heaven, who was praised is holding a book. Let's continue;

[5] And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Now who is this Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David? It CAN'T be the one one the throne!! It MUST be ANOTHER entity! Let's read and confirm this;

[7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

So there ARE TWO!!! Let's read further;

[13] And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Did you catch that? "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, AND unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Again I ask you...."Who does The Lamb of God take the book from? "Who is the one sitting on the Throne?"

Let's read some more to confirm;

Rev.21
[22] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Again we have TWO!!! throughout the WHOLE bible we have TWO!! Now just how do YOU get ONLY ONE!!!

If you need more scriptures proving this I have LOTS! But first if you could answer my question that would be great!!

[Superintendent Elijah Marshall]

Ok, I forgive you for your sarcism, and nasty spirit.. but however, I was responding to all the posts I read up to now, that's why i responded the way I did. I intentionally did NOT respond to your question specifically but addressed everything that was aforementioned... Now, in response to this previous reply, are you telling me there are 2 Gods? Is that what you are saying? Because you keep saying there are 2? Or are you, like other trinitarians claiming that there are 2 seperate persons in the Godhead? Then, I can answer your question sir..

blessings....

[Eccl. 12:13]

Brother, if you notice when I quote scripture, I QUOTE the scripture. This is what you said above;

"John declares in Revelation that He saw a throne sitting in the midst of Heaven, and that there was ONE sitting on the throne and later He declares that the one sitting on the throne was called Faithful and True; Revelation declares that the name of the Faithful and True is the Lord Jesus Christ."

Now this is what God's inspired word says;

Rev.19
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

God's word said, the one sitting on the white horse is called Faithful and True.
You said the one sitting on the THRONE is called Faithful and True.

Now who am I to believe?

As I asked you in the question I presented, "Who is the one that is sitting on the throne that the Lamb of God took the book from?

Rev.5
[7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Who is that is sitting in the temple with the Lord God almighty?

Rev.21
[22] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

And if Jesus said the following;

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Then just who was it that over 70 people saw in the OT?

Exd 24: 9 – 11. 9. Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

I am NOT a Trinitarian. I am one that is quoting what the scriptures says.......and they speak TWO!

Now these are my questions, if you care to answer them.

[James Pierce]

Eccl,

They speak of 2 beings, but not 2 supreme Gods, for that contradicts Torah, and all of the bible.