Who is the REAL God of the Old Testament? Part 1
Who is the God of the Old Testament?
Why is it so important that we know who the God of the Old Testament is? After all, it seems quite clear that God the Father is what was taught to us as the God of the Old Testament, right? Well, let’s search to see if that is really what God‘s Holy scriptures says!
Has Anyone seen God the Father?
St. John 1: 18 – No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.
St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Notice the distinction that is made in the above verses? Both Jesus and the apostle John referred to God as, God the Father. According to the scriptures, NO MAN HAS SEEN NOR HEARD GOD THE FATHER AT ANY TIME. let’s remember who made (2) of those statements…..JESUS!!! Now let’s search the scriptures of the OT.
This CAN NOT be the Father….so who is it?
Exd 24: 9 – 11. 9. Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Exd 33: 11 – And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
Exd 33: 23 – And I will take mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Num 12: 6-8. 6. And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all my house.
8. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold:
Now after reading these scriptures it seems very evident that, not only did Moses see and hear the voice of the God of Israel, but at least seventy-three people saw and heard him.
Let’s review:
In St. John we found that no man has seen God the Father, heard his voice nor seen his shape at anytime.
In Exodus and Numbers we found that Moses and at least seventy other elders saw and eat with the God of Isreal.
So what do we have here? Jesus himself said, no man has seen God the Father and the Old Testament says that Moses and at least seventy elders saw God. Could this be a contradiction? God forbid! Let’s continue to search the scriptures for the truth.
Searching for the ‘God’ of the OT
Now most of us have been taught that Jesus and God the Father are both Gods, but have you ever read it for yourself in the bible? Can you prove it through the scriptures?
Let’s start in the book of Philippians (NT) 2: 5-8. Here, Paul is talking to the Philippians and telling them to have the same mind as Christ has.
Phil 2:5-8. 5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
So here we have Paul telling us that Jesus, a God, found it not wrong to be equal with God, obviously God the Father. The reason I can say that is because Jesus is the one that became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Now let’s go to St. John (NT) to get a better understanding of these two (2) Gods. Yes….these TWO Gods!!!!!
St. John 1:1-4,14 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the life of men.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So now after reading in St. John we can understand why the statement in Philippians is true.
Jesus (The Word) did not think it wrong to be equal to God because, according to St. John1:1, he was God.
And how do I know that the Word is Jesus Christ? Because verse 14 tells us that “, the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.” And the Word, in St. John, is the same person that, “.,became obedient unto the death, even the death of the cross.” in Phil 2:8.
Now there was one thing I hope you did not miss. Who was it that made everything that was made? That’s right! It was the Word. And who is the Word? Jesus Christ. Now let’s go to Colossians (NT) to confirm this.
In this book we have Paul addressing the Colossians and encouraging them to stay strong in the faith, but not before letting them know whom it is that they should be thanking:
Col1:12-17 12. Giving thanks to the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.
17. And he is above all things, and by him all things consist.
So it is through, “…his dear SON…”, “…ALL things were created….” Need more proof?
Here are two more scriptures:
Hebrews (1:1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
(2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
Ephesians (3:9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Obviously Paul is telling the listeners the exact same thing St John said. And what he is saying is that the person that we have come to know as the Word, or Jesus Christ, is the one that created everything. Now this is very important. Let’s reason together for a moment and review the facts we’ve found in the scriptures.
We know that Jesus Christ is God and found it not robbery to be equal to God the Father. (NT) Phil 2:6.
We know that Jesus humbled himself and became obedient unto the death of the cross. (NT) Phil 2:8.
We know that the Word (Jesus Christ) was God, was made flesh and dwelt among us. (NT) St. John 1: 1 & 14.
And finally we know that the Word made everything that was made. “ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. (NT) Col 12:16.
Now at this point it should be quite clear as to what these scriptures are saying, but just incase you are not following them here it is in a nutshell:
Jesus Christ, also known as the Word, created everything that was created and he is a GOD!!
Why is it so important that we know who the God of the Old Testament is? After all, it seems quite clear that God the Father is what was taught to us as the God of the Old Testament, right? Well, let’s search to see if that is really what God‘s Holy scriptures says!
Has Anyone seen God the Father?
St. John 1: 18 – No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.
St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Notice the distinction that is made in the above verses? Both Jesus and the apostle John referred to God as, God the Father. According to the scriptures, NO MAN HAS SEEN NOR HEARD GOD THE FATHER AT ANY TIME. let’s remember who made (2) of those statements…..JESUS!!! Now let’s search the scriptures of the OT.
This CAN NOT be the Father….so who is it?
Exd 24: 9 – 11. 9. Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Exd 33: 11 – And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
Exd 33: 23 – And I will take mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Num 12: 6-8. 6. And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all my house.
8. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold:
Now after reading these scriptures it seems very evident that, not only did Moses see and hear the voice of the God of Israel, but at least seventy-three people saw and heard him.
Let’s review:
In St. John we found that no man has seen God the Father, heard his voice nor seen his shape at anytime.
In Exodus and Numbers we found that Moses and at least seventy other elders saw and eat with the God of Isreal.
So what do we have here? Jesus himself said, no man has seen God the Father and the Old Testament says that Moses and at least seventy elders saw God. Could this be a contradiction? God forbid! Let’s continue to search the scriptures for the truth.
Searching for the ‘God’ of the OT
Now most of us have been taught that Jesus and God the Father are both Gods, but have you ever read it for yourself in the bible? Can you prove it through the scriptures?
Let’s start in the book of Philippians (NT) 2: 5-8. Here, Paul is talking to the Philippians and telling them to have the same mind as Christ has.
Phil 2:5-8. 5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
So here we have Paul telling us that Jesus, a God, found it not wrong to be equal with God, obviously God the Father. The reason I can say that is because Jesus is the one that became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Now let’s go to St. John (NT) to get a better understanding of these two (2) Gods. Yes….these TWO Gods!!!!!
St. John 1:1-4,14 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the life of men.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So now after reading in St. John we can understand why the statement in Philippians is true.
Jesus (The Word) did not think it wrong to be equal to God because, according to St. John1:1, he was God.
And how do I know that the Word is Jesus Christ? Because verse 14 tells us that “, the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.” And the Word, in St. John, is the same person that, “.,became obedient unto the death, even the death of the cross.” in Phil 2:8.
Now there was one thing I hope you did not miss. Who was it that made everything that was made? That’s right! It was the Word. And who is the Word? Jesus Christ. Now let’s go to Colossians (NT) to confirm this.
In this book we have Paul addressing the Colossians and encouraging them to stay strong in the faith, but not before letting them know whom it is that they should be thanking:
Col1:12-17 12. Giving thanks to the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.
17. And he is above all things, and by him all things consist.
So it is through, “…his dear SON…”, “…ALL things were created….” Need more proof?
Here are two more scriptures:
Hebrews (1:1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
(2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
Ephesians (3:9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Obviously Paul is telling the listeners the exact same thing St John said. And what he is saying is that the person that we have come to know as the Word, or Jesus Christ, is the one that created everything. Now this is very important. Let’s reason together for a moment and review the facts we’ve found in the scriptures.
We know that Jesus Christ is God and found it not robbery to be equal to God the Father. (NT) Phil 2:6.
We know that Jesus humbled himself and became obedient unto the death of the cross. (NT) Phil 2:8.
We know that the Word (Jesus Christ) was God, was made flesh and dwelt among us. (NT) St. John 1: 1 & 14.
And finally we know that the Word made everything that was made. “ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. (NT) Col 12:16.
Now at this point it should be quite clear as to what these scriptures are saying, but just incase you are not following them here it is in a nutshell:
Jesus Christ, also known as the Word, created everything that was created and he is a GOD!!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by James Pierce on
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Eccl,
Re-read that. Chapter 5 states that Yahweh sits on the throne as well as the lamb who sits within the throne. Yahweh has the book in his hand, and the only one worthy to open it is the one that Yahweh gave all power in heaven and earth to, His Son Yeshua. Who is the Father? His name is Yahweh. -
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Permalink Reply by Eccl. 12:13 on
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Brother James, the bottom line is this, If you can't see that Jesus is the ONLY God man has ever dealt with, which is why He says "there is no other", and that there is God the Father also, the "invisiable God", the God NO MAN has seen, then that is God's will and ONLY He can remove the veil from your eyes so that you not believe a lie.
2Thes.2
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
The proof is throughout the entire bible;
Gen.1
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image,
Gen.11
[7] Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language
Pss.110
[1] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
John.1
[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John.5
[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Exod.24
[10] And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
St. John 17
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
[25] O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Phil.2
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Rev.21
[22] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
[23] And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
You can choose to believe or you may choose not to believe. The choice, and thus the OUTCOME of your choice, is yours to make.
Choose wisely!
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Eccl,
Brother James, the bottom line is this, If you can't see that Jesus is the ONLY God man has ever dealt with, which is why He says "there is no other", and that there is God the Father also, the "invisiable God", the God NO MAN has seen, then that is God's will and ONLY He can remove the veil from your eyes so that you not believe a lie.
I do not think you are even open to understanding the davar and its relation to Yahweh. Yeshua was never, nor is, or ever will be ABBA. There are not 2 separate ABBAS. Yahweh is Abba, and Yeshua is Ben.
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As in all of my post, they are for those that may have had questions about some of the topics in the bible. This one being about the Godhead.
I fully understand that ALL will not get what God is trying to reveal to them, which is why I do not get upset when they don't get it.
It's not my job to open eyes to reveal the truth, that's God job.
Peace Bro. and continue to keep the Laws, commandments and statutes of God to the best of your abilities.
My job is to do just what I'm doing, and that is to teach the true word of God, in hopes that some learn and accept.
For those that refuse it's on them
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Yes!!!! That IS my job. To teach the Godhead and ALL of the bible. And I welcome my judgement.
Now let's read what God has to say about teaching His word in "different tongues";
Acts.2
[3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
[11] Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
So GOD gave them "other tongues" to speak to those present. And what were they saying?
Acts.10
[46] For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
They magnified God....in "other tongues"
Did not God say this would happen? Let's read;
1Cor.14
[21] In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
I read and only know English, the words of the Hebrew and Greek language were translated into "other tongues" so that I could receive the true word of God, which is what I have, the KJV.
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Permalink Reply by Superintendent Elijah Marshall on
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He's very incorrect saying that there are two persons in the Godhead! NO scripture supports that.. but there is 1 John 5:7 that mentions that THREE bear record in Heaven; and then ends that the THREE are ONE! Now, the debate really is whether the three are AS ONE, or LITERALLY ARE ONE PERSON! The bible from Old Testament until New Testament supports a DISTINCTION between the three and how the three relate to us as Father, Word (Son) and Holy Ghost, but does NOT SUPPORT them being SEPERATE of each other in essence or plurality or persons! HEAR O ISRAEL, THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE! If there is only ONE GOD, AND THERE IS... JESUS AND THE HOLY GHOST, HAVE TO BE THAT ONE GOD.. To say that the other two, are seperate from each other indicates a plurality of persons and if there is only ONE (singular) God, then how can he be persons(which is a plural term); The One God is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost; but He functions as all three in a distinction to us, all for the purpose of our salvation...
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Let's make this simple, the God of the OT goes by MANY NAMES! He said so Himself;
Exod.6
[3] And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Isa.9
[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John.1
[29] The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Rev.5
[5] And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Now if the scriptures says God will be called by ALL of the above names, what are the Hebrew words for ALL of the names above?
Why do you limit yourself to ""Yahweh" and "Yeshua"?
Now you say I am wrong when I use the words God and Jesus because they come from pagan deities.
Would you please tell me why I MUST use the names YOU give me to, "Yahweh" and "Yeshua"
Because from my VERY brief study of the Hebrew language NEITHER of those words are present therein.
That being the case please direct me to the Book, Chapter and Verse that says we can ONLY use the words "Yahweh" and "Yeshua" AND that it is a SIN to do otherwise.
Please understand what it is I'm asking. These are my questions:
1. HOW did you come by the names "Yahweh" and "Yeshua" in the bible; BOOK, CHAPTER and VERSE!
2. WHERE in the bible does it say we can ONLY use the words "Yahweh" and "Yeshua", and if we use ANY OTHER words it is a sin; BOOK, CHAPTER and VERSE!
The closest I could find was the following; (YHWH), which from my understanding CANNOT be pronounced.
So how do you come about ADDING letters to the original Hebrew?
Why not just write YHWH when referring to The Almighty?
By whos' authority was it given to ADD to the original Hebrew?
Now if what you say CANNOT be proved through the scriptures, but is based upon thousands of years of tradition.....the words "Pharisees and Sadducees " come to mind....well let's just say, you really do not have much of a leg to stand on.
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Brother I watched the entire clip and have the following observations:
At 7:26 it states the following;
It is very likely that the name was pronounced very much like Yahweh.
The best argument for the spelling is that it is probably historically accurate.
“VERY LIKELY”??? “PROBABLY ACCURATE”??? These are the phrases you want to use to assure me that YOU are correct in using Yahweh?
You MUST come with something stronger than “very likely“ and “probably accurate“!!
Since we KNOW that the original letters (YHWH) is UNPRONOUNCABLE, HOW do you, or ANYBODY else know that adding “a” and “e” is what God wanted? Does it say it in His Holy word?
I’m not trying to be funny, but since the video you had me to watch acknowledge the fact that nobody knows for sure how (YHWH) is to be pronounced, maybe an “o” and “I” should have been added instead.
Or maybe, since the original Hebrew gives us (YHWH), then why not just say that "YHWH" whenever we are referring to God?
The bottom line, as I have asked you before, WHO said it was OK to ADD to God’s holy word? Who said that adding an “a” and “e” was correct? It appears that someone is trying to accommodate the creature, and NOT the creator?
Next thing:
At 8:32 it states the following;
It is transgression of the Third Commandment which prohibits us from bringing His Name to naught, or falsifying His name. Ex.20:7
And this is what Ex.20:7 says;
Ex.20
7. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
The following in the definition of vain:
1. Fruitless, pointlessly
2. In a disrespectful way
The following is the definition of falsifying:
1. To Misrepresent
2. To prove that something is incorrect
When you look up both words in a Thesaurus NEITHER come up as a word that could be used to replace the other.
My point here is the video used the word Falsify, but the scriptures use the word VAIN! And they do NOT come close to meaning the same thing.
Brother I don’t know if you made this video, or not, but if you are using it to promote what you believe, you really need to make sure they are accurate when quoting God’s holy scripture.
Replacing the word “vain” with the word “falsify” is WRONG! I truly hope it was just an oversight. We MUST be very careful when using the work of others and saying it is from the mouth of God.
Thus far brother, you have NOT convinced me that the word Yahweh is a TRUE, or authorized word for the one that said He would also be called;
“Wonderful, Counseller, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace”
Since God has said He would be called ALL of the above, why not call Him what HE has already said we can call Him? -
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OK Brother, I'm NOT denying that His name is YHWH. But if you say that YHWH says NOT to call Him by any other name, would not the same apply for the SPELLING of His name? Why not just use what is written in the Hebrew language? YHWH!!!
If YOUR name was spelled a certain way, would YOU want it spelled differently so that it can be pronounced easier? I really don't think so! Do you think God wants His name spelled differently than the way He gave it to us? Probably not!
Again, that's ALL I ahve been asking in this discussion? As I have asked you before, "WHO said it was OK to ADD to God’s holy name? Who said that adding an “a” and “e” was correct? It appears that someone is trying to accommodate the creature, and NOT the creator?
I have no problem pronouncing Yahweh whenever I see (YHWH), but why must I spell it the way it sounds, when the original spelling is YHWH and NOT Yahweh?
Hope you had a blessed Sabbath brother.
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Eccl,
lol YHWH is without vowels. What the Masoretes did was add the vowel his name, thus showing us how to actually pronounce his name. Hebrew is a consanant language, and vowels are added to aide pronounciation. YAHWEH is how you say his name.
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But it is NOT how you SPELL His name, Correct?
If the name is as sacred as you claim, shouldn't you SPELL it correctly also?
YHWH is the SPELLING, so whenever you see YHWH you say Yahweh!
When you see the word, "lingerie" you SAY "lawn-ger-ray" as in women underwear.
So If YHWH name is spelled this way, shouldn't we honor what He has given us and NOT add to His name. It's as though someone is trying to make it easier for us!
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Eccl,
No no no. This is how it works. Before Hebrew had vowels, it was a consanantal language only. There were no vowels to aide pronounciation. Hebrews had to memorize the pronunciation when reading Hebrew script. The Masoretes, who were Hebrew scholars, read the Hebrew text this way until they developed the vowel system without altering the Hebrew text as it would have sounded out of their mouths.
For example, The Masorete scholars would speak,"YHWH". But, it would not sound this way coming out of their mouths. You would hear the vowels A & E. Therefore, when creating the vowel system, to aide the pronunciation, they would have YAHWEH, instead of YHWH. These men knew what they were doing, and they did so without altering the text.
If you would have heard Moses, Joshua, Ezra, and many men of the bible who read Torah to the people, you would not hear the consanants only, rather, the vowels, even though the vowels did not exist in written form. Eccl, I hope this helps you, and motivate you to study Hebrew as myself, and Moreh is doing.
Shalom
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