Who is the REAL God of the Old Testament? Part 1
Who is the God of the Old Testament?
Why is it so important that we know who the God of the Old Testament is? After all, it seems quite clear that God the Father is what was taught to us as the God of the Old Testament, right? Well, let’s search to see if that is really what God‘s Holy scriptures says!
Has Anyone seen God the Father?
St. John 1: 18 – No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.
St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Notice the distinction that is made in the above verses? Both Jesus and the apostle John referred to God as, God the Father. According to the scriptures, NO MAN HAS SEEN NOR HEARD GOD THE FATHER AT ANY TIME. let’s remember who made (2) of those statements…..JESUS!!! Now let’s search the scriptures of the OT.
This CAN NOT be the Father….so who is it?
Exd 24: 9 – 11. 9. Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Exd 33: 11 – And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
Exd 33: 23 – And I will take mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Num 12: 6-8. 6. And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all my house.
8. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold:
Now after reading these scriptures it seems very evident that, not only did Moses see and hear the voice of the God of Israel, but at least seventy-three people saw and heard him.
Let’s review:
In St. John we found that no man has seen God the Father, heard his voice nor seen his shape at anytime.
In Exodus and Numbers we found that Moses and at least seventy other elders saw and eat with the God of Isreal.
So what do we have here? Jesus himself said, no man has seen God the Father and the Old Testament says that Moses and at least seventy elders saw God. Could this be a contradiction? God forbid! Let’s continue to search the scriptures for the truth.
Searching for the ‘God’ of the OT
Now most of us have been taught that Jesus and God the Father are both Gods, but have you ever read it for yourself in the bible? Can you prove it through the scriptures?
Let’s start in the book of Philippians (NT) 2: 5-8. Here, Paul is talking to the Philippians and telling them to have the same mind as Christ has.
Phil 2:5-8. 5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
So here we have Paul telling us that Jesus, a God, found it not wrong to be equal with God, obviously God the Father. The reason I can say that is because Jesus is the one that became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Now let’s go to St. John (NT) to get a better understanding of these two (2) Gods. Yes….these TWO Gods!!!!!
St. John 1:1-4,14 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the life of men.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So now after reading in St. John we can understand why the statement in Philippians is true.
Jesus (The Word) did not think it wrong to be equal to God because, according to St. John1:1, he was God.
And how do I know that the Word is Jesus Christ? Because verse 14 tells us that “, the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.” And the Word, in St. John, is the same person that, “.,became obedient unto the death, even the death of the cross.” in Phil 2:8.
Now there was one thing I hope you did not miss. Who was it that made everything that was made? That’s right! It was the Word. And who is the Word? Jesus Christ. Now let’s go to Colossians (NT) to confirm this.
In this book we have Paul addressing the Colossians and encouraging them to stay strong in the faith, but not before letting them know whom it is that they should be thanking:
Col1:12-17 12. Giving thanks to the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.
17. And he is above all things, and by him all things consist.
So it is through, “…his dear SON…”, “…ALL things were created….” Need more proof?
Here are two more scriptures:
Hebrews (1:1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
(2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
Ephesians (3:9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Obviously Paul is telling the listeners the exact same thing St John said. And what he is saying is that the person that we have come to know as the Word, or Jesus Christ, is the one that created everything. Now this is very important. Let’s reason together for a moment and review the facts we’ve found in the scriptures.
We know that Jesus Christ is God and found it not robbery to be equal to God the Father. (NT) Phil 2:6.
We know that Jesus humbled himself and became obedient unto the death of the cross. (NT) Phil 2:8.
We know that the Word (Jesus Christ) was God, was made flesh and dwelt among us. (NT) St. John 1: 1 & 14.
And finally we know that the Word made everything that was made. “ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. (NT) Col 12:16.
Now at this point it should be quite clear as to what these scriptures are saying, but just incase you are not following them here it is in a nutshell:
Jesus Christ, also known as the Word, created everything that was created and he is a GOD!!
Why is it so important that we know who the God of the Old Testament is? After all, it seems quite clear that God the Father is what was taught to us as the God of the Old Testament, right? Well, let’s search to see if that is really what God‘s Holy scriptures says!
Has Anyone seen God the Father?
St. John 1: 18 – No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.
St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Notice the distinction that is made in the above verses? Both Jesus and the apostle John referred to God as, God the Father. According to the scriptures, NO MAN HAS SEEN NOR HEARD GOD THE FATHER AT ANY TIME. let’s remember who made (2) of those statements…..JESUS!!! Now let’s search the scriptures of the OT.
This CAN NOT be the Father….so who is it?
Exd 24: 9 – 11. 9. Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Exd 33: 11 – And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
Exd 33: 23 – And I will take mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Num 12: 6-8. 6. And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all my house.
8. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold:
Now after reading these scriptures it seems very evident that, not only did Moses see and hear the voice of the God of Israel, but at least seventy-three people saw and heard him.
Let’s review:
In St. John we found that no man has seen God the Father, heard his voice nor seen his shape at anytime.
In Exodus and Numbers we found that Moses and at least seventy other elders saw and eat with the God of Isreal.
So what do we have here? Jesus himself said, no man has seen God the Father and the Old Testament says that Moses and at least seventy elders saw God. Could this be a contradiction? God forbid! Let’s continue to search the scriptures for the truth.
Searching for the ‘God’ of the OT
Now most of us have been taught that Jesus and God the Father are both Gods, but have you ever read it for yourself in the bible? Can you prove it through the scriptures?
Let’s start in the book of Philippians (NT) 2: 5-8. Here, Paul is talking to the Philippians and telling them to have the same mind as Christ has.
Phil 2:5-8. 5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
So here we have Paul telling us that Jesus, a God, found it not wrong to be equal with God, obviously God the Father. The reason I can say that is because Jesus is the one that became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Now let’s go to St. John (NT) to get a better understanding of these two (2) Gods. Yes….these TWO Gods!!!!!
St. John 1:1-4,14 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the life of men.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So now after reading in St. John we can understand why the statement in Philippians is true.
Jesus (The Word) did not think it wrong to be equal to God because, according to St. John1:1, he was God.
And how do I know that the Word is Jesus Christ? Because verse 14 tells us that “, the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.” And the Word, in St. John, is the same person that, “.,became obedient unto the death, even the death of the cross.” in Phil 2:8.
Now there was one thing I hope you did not miss. Who was it that made everything that was made? That’s right! It was the Word. And who is the Word? Jesus Christ. Now let’s go to Colossians (NT) to confirm this.
In this book we have Paul addressing the Colossians and encouraging them to stay strong in the faith, but not before letting them know whom it is that they should be thanking:
Col1:12-17 12. Giving thanks to the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.
17. And he is above all things, and by him all things consist.
So it is through, “…his dear SON…”, “…ALL things were created….” Need more proof?
Here are two more scriptures:
Hebrews (1:1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
(2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
Ephesians (3:9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Obviously Paul is telling the listeners the exact same thing St John said. And what he is saying is that the person that we have come to know as the Word, or Jesus Christ, is the one that created everything. Now this is very important. Let’s reason together for a moment and review the facts we’ve found in the scriptures.
We know that Jesus Christ is God and found it not robbery to be equal to God the Father. (NT) Phil 2:6.
We know that Jesus humbled himself and became obedient unto the death of the cross. (NT) Phil 2:8.
We know that the Word (Jesus Christ) was God, was made flesh and dwelt among us. (NT) St. John 1: 1 & 14.
And finally we know that the Word made everything that was made. “ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. (NT) Col 12:16.
Now at this point it should be quite clear as to what these scriptures are saying, but just incase you are not following them here it is in a nutshell:
Jesus Christ, also known as the Word, created everything that was created and he is a GOD!!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Eccl. 12:13 on
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Let me as you this;
Just how long has the vocalization of the Tetragrammaton ( יהוה ) been around?
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Permalink Reply by James Pierce on
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Eccl,
The vocalization of the Hebrew language without the vowels been around since Hebrew was originally spoken.The vowels were added around the 6th century C.E. This help aide pronunciation of Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey, and the rest of the Hebrew language. The masoretes were true scholars at doing this without altering the Hebrew text. These vowel additions has truly help Non-Hebrews excel in the language of Hebrew.
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First of all, this topic has gotten away from the subject of this lesson, Who is the Real God of the OT. If you want to start another post about the names of God, that is fine, but I'm going to end this "off topic" with the following (2) issues;
1. You said above;
"First you attempt to argue about the name totally then facts are given to you, now you want to argue about the spelling..."
If you go to page (8) of this post you will see that from the moment the topic switched to the 'name' of God my argument has ALWAYS been with the spelling of His name, as you can read here;
"The closest I could find was the following; (YHWH), which from my understanding CANNOT be pronounced.
So how do you come about ADDING letters to the original Hebrew?
Why not just write YHWH when referring to The Almighty?
By whos' authority was it given to ADD to the original Hebrew?"
So please DO NOT try to make it seem like it was ME that switched the argument once I received some information. My argument from the START has been the SPELLING of God's name. Next;
2. Did you not read my entire last post on this matter? Or maybe you read it and did not understand. I will try to explain it differently;
Let's try it like this; Take the word "EPITOME" Now this word has a specific spelling, but to pronouce it some must go the the dictionary if they have never heard the word said before. So let's do just that; let's go to see just how the dictionary tells us to PRONOUCE this word:
Depending on the dictionary you use you may get a few variations on the way to PRONOUNCE the word "EPITOME"; and here are (2) of them:
(e-pit' o-mi) or (i pitt a mee)
Now the SPELLING above is just to HELP you to be able to PRONOUCE the word. Now that you know how to PRONOUNCE the word, what do you do when it is time to USE the word in a sentance?
Do you use (e-pit' o-mi) or (i pitt a mee)? NO YOU DO NOT!!! Now that you know HOW to PRONOUNCE the word, you go BACK and use the ORIGINAL SPELLING!! You use EPITOME! Why? Because that is how the word is spelled.
Now in your reply you said the following:
"HOW ELSE WOULD YOU KNOW HOW TO PRONOUNCE IT MAN???? How would you teach someone to say the letters YHWH? If you just say it they might look at you and ask how did you get "Yahweh" from YHWH? What would you answer be then? You would HAVE TO SHOW THEM HOW EACH LETTER SOUNDS!!!! sHEESH..lol"
Well brother, you have done a very good job of SHOWING me how to PRONOUNCE (YHWH). You gave me the following;
Yodh = "Y" (or YAH)
He = "H" (pronounced "hey")
Waw = "W"
He = "H" (sometimes silent at the ends of words)
Now that you have SHOWED me how to PRONOUNCE (YHWH) should I continue to use what you gave me to help me sound it out?
Should I use (Yodh-he-waw-he) in a sentance because it makes it easier for the reader to pronounce? I'll let you answer that.
Or how about this; the following is ALSO just an AID to help in the PRONUNCIATION of (YHWH);
(YaHWeH)
So I ask again brother, Do I use the AID in a sentance (Yahweh), OR do I use the correct SPELLING (YHWH)?
Because guess what? Now that I know HOW to pronouce (YHWH) I will never forget it. And guess what else? Whenever I SEE (YHWH) I will know HOW to PRONOUNCE it!
So what's your argument again for having to use "YAHWEH"? Because I really can't see it!!
When people come to you asking HOW to say (YHWH), sure....show them how the letters are pronounced, sound it out for them, do whatever it takes so that they KNOW how (YHWH) sounds, BUT........
If you say, AND KNOW, the correct spelling is (YHWH), then that is how it should be spelled and that is what should be used; NOT AN AID.........just
YHWH!
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Eccl,
So how do you come about ADDING letters to the original Hebrew?
I believe I gave you the answer to this question. They were not adding in your sense. Your sense of adding is turning it out to be a sin. But, If you do not even understand the history of the Hebrew language and its vowel system, then I can see why you stated that. Again, when Hebrew would speak, you would hear the vowels. When they write it, there would be no vowels. These scholars were not sinning, but rather they were adding the vowels they already spoke.
Why not just write YHWH when referring to The Almighty?
If you want to, then go right ahead. Honestly, there's no actually way of pronouncing his name without the aide of vowels. If you feel you need to write YHWH, then you are free to do so, and you have no sinned.
By whos' authority was it given to ADD to the original Hebrew?"
No one added anything lol. You might wanna study the history of Hebrew instead of speaking your assumptions all over the place :)
Now the SPELLING above is just to HELP you to be able to PRONOUCE the word. Now that you know how to PRONOUNCE the word, what do you do when it is time to USE the word in a sentance?
You can either write his name without vowels, or you can do it with vowels.
Now that you have SHOWED me how to PRONOUNCE (YHWH) should I continue to use what you gave me to help me sound it out?
The vowels were added to aide pronounciation.
Should I use (Yodh-he-waw-he) in a sentance because it makes it easier for the reader to pronounce?
Hmmm, your above answer is pretty foolish. Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey are the names of the consanants. You do not sound those out. Thats like writing down the consanants of an english word, and sounding out the sounds of each letter lol. Thats illogical. Lv are the consanants for the word "Love". We add the vowels "o & e" to aide pronounciation. This is what the Masorestes did. Eccl, in all your knowledge. get understanding!
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Moreh,
Amen. His name really is Yahweh. I suggest that eccl study Hebrew.
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