Women Preachers: "Yes" or "No" and WHY?... book chapter and verse please!

[Yuri Solomon]

I know this is a hot topic, but I will take my chances on it. Preachers, I want to know what is your view on this subject and why or why not do you conclude as you do according to the word of God. Now let's be nice and considerate. Everyone has a right to believe what they think is right before God and to be treated with respect. However, the scripture is the final court of arbitration.

[James Pierce]

I'd like to give you some of my beliefs. As leaning towards Messianic Judaism, I believe:

1) God is not a trinity.
2) You must keep the law of God; not for your salvation, but to prove your love, fear, and obedience to God.

There are other beliefs I have that will not seem conservative of orthodox "Christianity", but I will just give you those two for now.

[Yuri Solomon]

Let's not talk about the trinity yet; let me get clarity on your #2 point.

>>> 2) You must keep the law of God; not for your salvation, but to prove your love, fear, and obedience to God./i>

Are you speaking of: 1) Progressive Sanctification as a sign of faith OR 2) Perfection.as a sign of faith OR 3) the Mosaic Law proper (like worshipping on saturday, etc.)?

[James Pierce]

#'s 1 & 3

[Yuri Solomon]

Well, James, I obviously would agree with progressive sanctification in the life of the believer. I also hold to what is called "Lordship Salvation" meaning true saving faith is accompanied by some sort of outward show. As Luther put it, "we are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone." Or as James simply put it, "Faith without works is dead faith which cannot save.

However, here's my question: if one must keep the Mosaic Law as proof of salvation, codified in particular observations if I am understanding you correctly, then how much of it or the lack of it would result in a loss of salvation?

BTW: I may not altogether disagree with you principally, but I am trying to discearn if you are saying what I would say about the Mosaic Law.

[James Pierce]

I disagree with the belief that we keep Torah for salvation. We keep Torah because it is how we walk in holiness. Sin is the breaking of the law, so when we keep the law, when are staying away from sin, and its practices.

We keep the law as proof of salvation, yes. Jesus says you shall know them by their fruits. Those who keep torah, psalms says they are planted olive trees, and those who walk in holiness produce good fruit, or in the case of olive trees, good olives ha ha ha.

We also keep the law as proof of our fear and love for God. It is for our sanctifcation, and not salvation.

The law cannot save, for if it did, Jesus died for nothing. Jesus came to save us from the law of sin and death, but not the law itself. Most Christians will say that we are not under law, but under grace. That phrase really means we are not under the law's condemnation.

If we were not under the law itself, then who can judge us for sinning, and even condemn us? If there is no law, there is no sin. If the law could save, then of course breaking one law is enough to condemn us, but thank God for the death, and resurrection of Jesus.

[Yuri Solomon]

>>> Sin is the breaking of the law, so when we keep the law, when are staying away from sin, and its practices. br />
I agree to this in one sense, but not in another sense… i.e. the moral law is a tutor or communicator of God standard, but not the ceremonial law…The ceremonial law was meant to typically convey God’s requirements for the atonement for sin. All of which was fulfilled in the antitype, Jesus Christ… such ordnances have been abolished (Eph 2).

>>> We keep the law as proof of salvation, yes. Jesus says you shall know them by their fruits. Those who keep torah, psalms says they are planted olive trees, and those who walk in holiness produce good fruit, or in the case of olive trees, good olives ha ha ha. We also keep the law as proof of our fear and love for God. It is for our sanctifcation, and not salvation. br />
Agreed to some extent! However this rationale would rightly support “once saved always saved.”

>>> The law cannot save, for if it did, Jesus died for nothing. Jesus came to save us from the law of sin and death, but not the law itself. Most Christians will say that we are not under law, but under grace. That phrase really means we are not under the law's condemnation. br />
Yes it means that, but it means more than that; its highest meaning is that we are in the Spirit or literally, “We are above the law.”

>>> If we were not under the law itself, then who can judge us for sinning, and even condemn us? br />
Yes… and the scripture is very clear that “there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ…” i.e. those that are “in the Spirit.” (Rom 8)

>>> If there is no law, there is no sin. br />
You are right… and nothing has nor ever will abolish the law; however, in Christ the law is absolutely fulfilled and the believer has no obligation to the law in the Spirit. “The Spirit” and “the Law” are the same standard; however, the purpose, perspective, and power differ.

The PURPOSE of the law is to condemn. Anyone who tries to please God by keeping the law is condemned to failure absolutely. Yet the purpose of the Spirit is empowerment to move passed the law’s standard apart from law itself. The Spirit is proof of sonship, For the Spirit indwelled/empowered believer, Romans 8 begins “there is no condemnation” and ends “there is no separation.”

The PERSPECTIVE of the Law is “what not to do”, while the perspective of the Spirit is “what to do.” One will always fail when the constant focus is the law’s restrictions, rather than Christ’s splendid example (the Spirit.) One must replace sinful deeds, with righteous deeds. Yet the law could not and did not provide a Spirit of excellence, but only a base standard of preservation without empowerment. In the incarnation of Christ, God provided for us RELATIONSHIP, not mere RULES. So then we have an example, the word in flesh, thus the Spirit (i.e. the meaning, intent, and perfect example) of Christ Jesus. This is a new perspective that the law can never give.

There is no POWER in the law. The law literally brings a man to the end of himself. ( …that every mouth may be shut Rom 3.) Whatever a man thought he could do, a proper view of the law never empowers or emboldens a man, but destroys all personal optimisms… and readies him for grace and mercy. Anyone who finds power in the law has perverted the law by minimizing its standards and ignoring its true purpose.

>>> If the law could save, then of course breaking one law is enough to condemn us, but thank God for the death, and resurrection of Jesus. br />
The law can’t save, nor can it preserve salvation… the law can only do one thing: reveal God’s perfect standard of holiness, and consequently condemn anyone who looks to it as source of empowerment to meet the standard it communicates.

MY POSITION: I agree that a believer is increasing becoming a moral law-keeper (not a ceremonial law-keeper), but not by effort, rather by nature. I would say, 1) Christ is the perfect law-keeper and 2) Christians are follower of Christ, and therefore 3) Christians become law-keepers; however, not because they follow law, but because they follow Christ. This is an essential distinction.

[James Pierce]

I agree to this in one sense, but not in another sense… i.e. the moral law is a tutor or communicator of God standard, but not the ceremonial law…The ceremonial law was meant to typically convey God’s requirements for the atonement for sin. All of which was fulfilled in the antitype, Jesus Christ… such ordnances have been abolished (Eph 2).

Jesus, and his apostles were all Torah observant. They observed all the 10 commandments(including the sabbath), and they observed the feasts days, and other laws that were commanded of them individually. What was really nailed to the cross was the ceremonial/ritual laws, for Christ did away with those. He was the eternal sacrifice for us.

Even after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Apostles, and all converts to the Messianic way observed Torah. They met every Saturday for the most part to hear the teachings of Paul, they observed the feast days as well. The Sabbath, and the feast days are a shadow of Christ(Col 2:16-17, and as well as the coming kingdom). Paul did not discourage anyone to not keep Sabbath or the feast days, otherwise he would be a hypocrite, and a liar.

Eph 2:15 goes inline with the fact that the law of sin and death was nailed to the cross, so that we may be new creatures in Jesus, reconciling back to God so that the enmity between him and us would be killed. Torah itself was not nailed to the cross, but the condemnation of Torah---sin and death, along with the ceremonial/sacrificial laws.. except the feast days and sabbath, for they were still observed in the early 1st century church.

Agreed to some extent! However this rationale would rightly support “once saved always saved.”

I disagree heavily with the doctrine of OSAS.

Yes it means that, but it means more than that; its highest meaning is that we are in the Spirit or literally, “We are above the law.”

I believe what you said here is a logical fallacy. If one can be above the standard of holiness, then are we holier than God himself? I disagree that we are above the law. The law is our standard of holiness. Jesus, the Apostles, including Paul, obeyed Torah, and recognized that Torah is the standard for holy living--being set apart as God's holy people.

Yes… and the scripture is very clear that “there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ…” i.e. those that are “in the Spirit.” (Rom 8)

I agree with that because the law of sin and death does not hang over the heads of those who are repentant of their sins, and keep God's commandments(standard of holiness), and placing their faith in Jesus Christ for their salvation.

You are right… and nothing has nor ever will abolish the law; however, in Christ the law is absolutely fulfilled and the believer has no obligation to the law in the Spirit. “The Spirit” and “the Law” are the same standard; however, the purpose, perspective, and power differ.

When Christ said he did not come to destroy Torah, but to fullfill it, he meant that he came to establish the law, to bring about its true practice, to perform it, to obey it. Remember, The pharisees were not practicing the law, but rather tradition. Their scripture was Talmud, and not Torah. To them, Torah was gone and Talmud was in, but Jesus said til heaven and earth pass away, Torah will always be here.

I think that most Christians misunderstand "Freedom in Christ". We are free from the law of sin and death, but not from the law itself. The Torah is the standard for holiness, so we can't possibly be free from that. Paul outlined lots of sins in his letters; sins that were very prevelant in the Roman empire, and the fruits of the flesh, but if you are walking in the ways of Torah, then you would not fullfill sin.

Yes, we are in Christ, and in the spirit, but we are still obligated to keep his commandments(Duet 6, 28, John 14, 1 John 2:3, 5:3, to name a few).

The PURPOSE of the law is to condemn. Anyone who tries to please God by keeping the law is condemned to failure absolutely. Yet the purpose of the Spirit is empowerment to move passed the law’s standard apart from law itself. The Spirit is proof of sonship, For the Spirit indwelled/empowered believer, Romans 8 begins “there is no condemnation” and ends “there is no separation.”

I'd say that the purpose of the law is to be our schoolmaster, but in turn, the law does condemn, because it demands complete perfection for salvation. I am in agreement with you when you said man would fail if they rely on the works of the law for salvation. A man that does that is under a curse(Galatians 3).

The Spirit of the Lord makes us free from the law-----its condemnation. But, should we sin because we are free from sin and death? Should grace abound, God forbid! God demands holiness, and gave us his Torah to show us just that.

The PERSPECTIVE of the Law is “what not to do”, while the perspective of the Spirit is “what to do.” One will always fail when the constant focus is the law’s restrictions, rather than Christ’s splendid example (the Spirit.) One must replace sinful deeds, with righteous deeds. Yet the law could not and did not provide a Spirit of excellence, but only a base standard of preservation without empowerment. In the incarnation of Christ, God provided for us RELATIONSHIP, not mere RULES. So then we have an example, the word in flesh, thus the Spirit (i.e. the meaning, intent, and perfect example) of Christ Jesus. This is a new perspective that the law can never give.

A kingdom itself has rules, and its subjects must adhere to the rules there. surely they are free to posses the kingdom, but as long as they do it within the laws that were given them. Being in the spirit of the lord does not abolish the law, neither discourage us from keeping it.

If we are in a relationship with God the Father without his standard of holiness, then what kind of relationship is that?

There is no POWER in the law. The law literally brings a man to the end of himself. ( …that every mouth may be shut Rom 3.) Whatever a man thought he could do, a proper view of the law never empowers or emboldens a man, but destroys all personal optimisms… and readies him for grace and mercy. Anyone who finds power in the law has perverted the law by minimizing its standards and ignoring its true purpose.

I am in agreement here, that the law does not have the power to save. Galatians 2:22 tells us that if righteouness could be obtained through observing the law, then Christ died for nothing. But, we know that Christ died, resurrection, and did what the law can never do, and that is save. Praise him.

>>> If the law could save, then of course breaking one law is enough to condemn us, but thank God for the death, and resurrection of Jesus. <
The law can’t save, nor can it preserve salvation… the law can only do one thing: reveal God’s perfect standard of holiness, and consequently condemn anyone who looks to it as source of empowerment to meet the standard it communicates.

Amen brother! Thank God for Jesus.

My Position: We as followers of Jesus, like him, should Keep Torah. Only Jesus kept Torah perfectly, and without sin, but we observe it because he commanded us, and it proves our obedience, love, and fear of the Lord. I want to remain in my Lord by obeying, and keeping his commandments, but my faith is soley in him for my salvation, and not the law, and that is what all believers in Jesus should do.. Look to Jesus!

Eccle 12:13-14: The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

Matt 7:21 shows us that on the day of judgement, Jesus will tell sinners to depart from him, he never knew them. These sinners are lawless ones(Greek: Anomos, aka: no law). Those who have not repented of their sins, kept God's commandments and placed their faith in Jesus will be told to depart from him. Lets remain in Jesus!


Be blessed, and live well bro,
James

[Yuri Solomon]

>>> Jesus, and his apostles were all Torah observant. They observed all the 10 commandments(including the sabbath), and they observed the feasts days, and other laws that were commanded of them individually. What was really nailed to the cross was the ceremonial/ritual laws, for Christ did away with those. He was the eternal sacrifice for us… Paul did not discourage anyone to not keep Sabbath or the feast days, otherwise he would be a hypocrite, and a liar. br />

This is absolutely not true James: Paul clearly said there is no obligation to feast days.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

>>> I disagree heavily with the doctrine of OSAS. br />

I understand that; however, what you laid out supports eternal security. If we are not saved by obeying God, then we cannot become unsaved by disobeying God. However, if as you have stated (and I think rightly) obedience is evidence of salvation, utter disobedience is evidence that you were never save to begin with and not a forfeiting of salvation.

>>> I believe what you said here is a logical fallacy.br />

I know what a fallacy is. I would appreciate you laying out the specific fallacy I have committed.

Now actually, I think you are on one hand trying to say Christians are no longer under the condemnation of law, but on the other hand, we are still obligated to law, which actually is a contradiction. Both cannot be true.

You have made a couple of contradictions. First of all, law with no executive power is no good. So it is NOT POSSIBLE to be subject to law and there be no condemnation in that law.

Secondly, condemnation is still in your concept of the law because of your belief that salvation can be forfeited by disobedience. That James would in fact be “condemnation.”

>>> If one can be above the standard of holiness, then are we holier than God himself? br />

The law is a BASE standard of “DONTs”… However, an attitude of law-keeping puts one under the law; however, an attitude of pleasing God through love puts one above law… For instance, if I want my son to keep his room clean, I institute a law. You must keep your room clean or you will be punished. However, if he comes to the point that he wants to keep his room clean; my law is obsolete and he is above it. Now he keeps his room clean all the time. But let’s say I come and find his room in disarray one day in his absence. Well, I would assume something occurred that took precedence over the room at the moment… Why? Because I know his heart is consumed with a clean room… so even then he does not become subject to punishment/condemnation again.

LAW says don’t kill… SPIRIT says promote life… (Don’t even call him a fool)
LAW says don’t commit adultery… SPIRIT says regard her as your sister (Don’t even look on her with lust)

This is infinitely higher than law… Paul is clear… 2Co 3:6 ... for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

So the true believer is not subject to the law anymore… his eye is on Christ, to please him, and that “relationship” will fulfill the “rules” without subjugation to the rules.

I’ll stop here as I think what I have said thus, speaks to everything said subsequently.

[James Pierce]

This is absolutely not true James: Paul clearly said there is no obligation to feast days.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:16-17 is one of the most misunderstood scriptures in the book concerning the holy days, and the sabbath days.

There was a false doctrine called "Ascetism", that was growing in the pagan culture that believers were in. It is the belief that one can gain a higher spiritual level through self denial, self mortification, etc. They were also adding to the holy days, much like what the phariees did.

This is why we read in Col 2:8 - See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Their paganistic traditions were adding fasting to the holy days. Obstaining from food to mortify yourself, but on the holy days, you eat lol. There were lots of human tradition being added to the truth.

That is why Paul said in verse 16 to let no man judge in meat, and the holy days. No where in that vese did Paul discouraged observing the holy days.

This is why historical/cultural context is so needed.

I understand that; however, what you laid out supports eternal security. If we are not saved by obeying God, then we cannot become unsaved by disobeying God. However, if as you have stated (and I think rightly) obedience is evidence of salvation, utter disobedience is evidence that you were never save to begin with and not a forfeiting of salvation.

I'd say you should read more of my discussion in that topic that I wrote about concerning OSAS.

I know what a fallacy is. I would appreciate you laying out the specific fallacy I have committed.

Now actually, I think you are on one hand trying to say Christians are no longer under the condemnation of law, but on the other hand, we are still obligated to law, which actually is a contradiction. Both cannot be true.

Let me clarify. Of course, we as believers are not under the condemnation of the law, but according to the command of the Lord, we are commanded to keep it. Back in OT times, it was instant death when you broke God's law, but now, we have a lawyer in heaven who interceded for us. This is grace right here brother. OT people did not have this, but the NT covenant is better. Now, the condemnation for practicing lawlessness is held at the end of days. I hope that is clear.

You have made a couple of contradictions. First of all, law with no executive power is no good. So it is NOT POSSIBLE to be subject to law and there be no condemnation in that law.

I am in agreement if a law does not have consequences, then it is no good. That is true, but, with God's law, those who are lawless will be the ones, at the END OF DAYS, will be punished for it. the law still has power, because it reveals our sin, but the punishment for breaking Torah is held off to the end.

Secondly, condemnation is still in your concept of the law because of your belief that salvation can be forfeited by disobedience. That James would in fact be “condemnation.”

We are only secured as long as we remain in Jesus. If you fall away from Jesus for good, then you cannot be bought back to repentance(Hebrews 6). Your righteousness will be forgotten, and you will die in your sins(ezekiel 18).

The law is a BASE standard of “DONTs”… However, an attitude of law-keeping puts one under the law; however, an attitude of pleasing God through love puts one above law… For instance, if I want my son to keep his room clean, I institute a law. You must keep your room clean or you will be punished. However, if he comes to the point that he wants to keep his room clean; my law is obsolete and he is above it. Now he keeps his room clean all the time. But let’s say I come and find his room in disarray one day in his absence. Well, I would assume something occurred that took precedence over the room at the moment… Why? Because I know his heart is consumed with a clean room… so even then he does not become subject to punishment/condemnation again.

I am not sure if I understand your logic. If he comes to the fact he wants his room clean, and he does it, then he isnt above the law, but he is fulfilling the law. He is practicing it because your law requires the room to be clean. Torah must be PERFORMED, and not just lay dwelling in heart.

LAW says don’t kill… SPIRIT says promote life… (Don’t even call him a fool)
LAW says don’t commit adultery… SPIRIT says regard her as your sister (Don’t even look on her with lust)

This is infinitely higher than law… Paul is clear… 2Co 3:6 ... for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

So the true believer is not subject to the law anymore… his eye is on Christ, to please him, and that “relationship” will fulfill the “rules” without subjugation to the rules.

I’ll stop here as I think what I have said thus, speaks to everything said subsequently.

To sum it up of what you stated. I agree that we are in Christ Jesus, but even Jesus said,"If you love me, keep my commandments". Jesus' commands are the same as the Fathers, being that he obeyed Torah as well. Jesus, the Logos of God, is the exact representation of God, therefore his laws, are God's laws.

I am in agreement with you that the law cannot save, but obeying Torah proves your love, fear, and obedience to God. If one, for some reason, abandon his master, and goes off to live a life of lawlessness, never to return, he cannot comes back because his heart will be too hardened, and he will suffer eternal death. The Lord says choose life.

[Yuri Solomon]

There is a universal negative declaration that no condemnation remains for anyone in Christ; therefore, the law is powerless over “those” in Christ and accordingly leaves no Christian subject to law; because, the Spirit positions the believer above law.

>>> We are only secured as long as we remain in Jesus. If you fall away from Jesus for good, then you cannot be bought back to repentance(Hebrews 6). Your righteousness will be forgotten, and you will die in your sins(ezekiel 18).<

The problem with that idea is that there are no examples of true believers ever falling away from Jesus. Saving faith is not mere perception but an undeniable reality that the father reveals, not flesh and blood. No one can see Christ as He is and then say it is not so. By way of illustration: you cannot truly believe that you are not viewing a computer right now. You could make believe this is not your reality but not truly believe it; so it is with the reality of Jesus as Lord and Savior when the father reveals it to a person.

>>> I am not sure if I understand your logic. If he comes to the fact he wants his room clean, and he does it, then he isnt above the law, but he is fulfilling the law. <

No the law is not his motivation… it is not his focus… it is not his intent to even keep my law… He wants his room clean… a clean room is his motivation… a clean room is his focus… His heart cannot be content with a less than clean room. He may not even think of my rules or punishment or any such thing anymore, because the spirit of a clean room has set him free from the law of unclean room and its consequences.

The law IS fulfilled but not “intentionally”, it is fulfilled “incidentally” in the spirit of righteousness.

>>> He is practicing it because your law requires the room to be clean. <

No! That’s just it; he is not cleaning the room because I require it; he is cleaning the room because his heart is filled with the spirit of a clean room. He wants a clean room. If I die, he still wants a clean room. I never have to tell him to clean his room: because, he will do it on his own; because, he wants it as much as I want it.

>>> Torah must be PERFORMED, and not just lay dwelling in heart.<

Must be Performed??? NOT!… Will be performed where one follows Christ in love, YES! But the important point is that law can never be accomplished when one focuses on keeping the law. It will without fail result in self-righteousness and consequently remain unfulfilled and in fact broken to one’s condemnation. To be rather blunt here: that is exactly your condition now… you are ready to point the finger of condemnation at all who do not observe the law, believing that you are observing the law; and in doing so you are breaking the law.

>>> To sum it up of what you stated. I agree that we are in Christ Jesus, but even Jesus said,"If you love me, keep my commandments". Jesus' commands are the same as the Fathers, being that he obeyed Torah as well. Jesus, the Logos of God, is the exact representation of God, therefore his laws, are God's laws.<

Jesus does not mean focus on the Torah,,, Jesus means focus on Him and learn to “love” as he “loves” for in that the commandments of old are kept. Again I say to you, “law can never be accomplished when one focuses on keeping the law. It will without fail result in self-righteousness and consequently remain unfulfilled and in fact broken to one’s condemnation. To be blunt, that is exactly your condition now… you are ready to point the finger of condemnation at all who do not observe the law, believing that you are observing the law; and in doing so you are breaking the law.”

>>> I am in agreement with you that the law cannot save, but obeying Torah proves your love, fear, and obedience to God. <

To the contrary, a focus on keeping the Torah will without fail result in self-righteousness and consequently remain unfulfilled and in fact broken to one’s condemnation.

>>> If one, for some reason, abandon his master, and goes off to live a life of lawlessness, never to return, he cannot comes back because his heart will be too hardened, and he will suffer eternal death. The Lord says choose life. <

If one abandons his master, and goes off to live a life of lawlessness it proves he never had faith in his master to begin with. Saving faith cannot ever come to an end; because, it is effectual and produced by an undeniable reality that is revealed by the Father.

In other words, one can only fall away because he concludes Jesus has failed him; however, if Jesus has not failed him (and Jesus never fails anyone), then the problem is not Jesus’ promises, but the person’s own faulty expectations and presumptions; therefore, he is not disappointed in Christ but in his false expectation of Christ. So then he never really has faith in the person, work, and promise of Christ, for if he did he would not have been disappointed and would have endured.

[James Pierce]

OSAS is when a believer gets saved, they are saved forever. But is this true?

Do you not know that OSAS rules out repentance? How so? Because If I am OSAS, and my past, present, future sins are forgiven, then there is no need to repent of the sins that I will commit. But this aint true.

The Greek word for repent means to turn from the sins you did, and turn from your present sins.

There is a scripture in John 6 that OSAS'ers love to use to prove that you are saved and always saved. Jesus said in John 6:39 - And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Notice the phrase," That I should lose nothing". AHH yes, you see. We cant give up salvation!, but low and behold.. this is not what that phrase means in the Greek. The Greek phrase is "Apollumi me". This is a subjunctive phrase.

When something is subjunctive, that means it shows uncertainty, and the possibility that it may or may not happen.

In other words.. it is possible for a believer to forfeit their salvation. Another truth is that it is very unlikely that it will happen If you are deeply rooted in Jesus. Jesus, and the apostles tell us to "continue in the faith."

If forfeiting salvation was not possible, then I dont think Jesus and the apostles would exhort us to endure to the end, continue in the faith, or fight the good fight, because in the end, we will endure anyways . Let my people think!! Will you think? Get rid of all biases which I know you already have done that.

Another proof of forfeiting salvation is in Hebrews 6, where they tasted, partook of Gods things, but then they fell away, and in this type of falling away(The kind that has your heart completly turned away from God, never to come back), you cannot be bought back to repentance, thus being lost with no hope of salvation.

Someone may say,"If OSAS is not true, then we have a works salvation." Well I believe this would have it backwards. We do not have a works salvation on our entrance into it, but we do work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We must abide in the faith, we must obey his commands. You know that is true.

All of these are works, and you will admit that they are works. They are our works, and God does not do these for us. This is what we call the santification process, which is on our part, and God gives us the power to do it. What would you do with that power?

I want to add more from my previous discussions:

Hebrews was written to predominately Jews who came to faith in Messiah.One of the purposes of Hebrewas was to show them that Messiah was the perfect sacrifice once and for all(Hebrews 10). Hebrews 3:13 tells these Hebrew believers to encourage one another daily so that they will not be hardened at heart by sin's deceifulness.

Hebrews 6:4-6 - For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

In Hebrews 6, which the context is referring to Hebrew Christians, is talking about falling away from the faith. The words enlighted, tasted, and shared, in the Greek, reveals that these people were genuine converts to the faith.

It goes on to state that if they fall away, they cannot be brought back to repentance.

Notice the faith "to restore them again to repentance". Your logic reveals that Hebrews 6 says they were not saved in the first place. Well, True logic, and common sense would say that how can you be brought back to something you was NEVER apart of lol?

It says they cannot be restored to repentance again, which reveals that they were once repentant of their sins, and living the life in Christ, hence when it said that they shared, tasted, and was enlightened by God----true conversion.

1 John, where it says they left us because they were not of us is not talking about salvation, but of true apostleship. 1 John was written because the doctrine of Gnosticism was infecting Christians at the time.

There were false Apostles, and THEY were the ones who left because they were really not true ones. Jesus himself said there will be those who try to sneak into God's kingdom, but guess what, these ones that left did not go through Jesus.

The truth still stands that true, repentant believers in Jesus can have their hearts so hardened(Hebrews 3:13), that they will never be restored to repentance.


Eternal life means forever, but obviously, as I stated above, scripture proves that you lose that eternal life, for it is a gift from God, by falling away, and going back to a life of sin forever.

Take heed to Prophet Ezekiel. This is what he says:

Ezekiel 18:21-24 - “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? but when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

When you REMAIN in the Lord Jesus---keeping his commandments, THEN the Father will love you, and so will Jesus, you will retain the gift of eternal life.

When you do what the righteous man did in Ezekiel 18, and you die in your sins, then you are just as good as dead, bound to eternal destruction. Oh, how OSAS is such a false doctrine.

[Yuri Solomon]

James you did not really speak to my last post. As for "OSAS" you have again misused study tools such as the greek la, to say that the scripture is not saying what it is saying. But I don't want to go there because you have not spoken to the problems that I pointed out with the way you misuse helpful tools of study to contradict the clear teaching of a passage with an alternate meaning that no one could arrive at by simply reading the bible.