Whats you thought on the pay for Musicians

[DR.Marietta Brown]

Do you think Musicians are paid to much for there services. Do you think they should be held accountable to a local Pastors.

[Peggy Joseph]

Just to share little something with you guys. Most (NOT ALL) musicians go to school and have to pay for their knowledge in music. The same as you go to school to get your degree in whatever you pursue in life (do you work for free)??? It is so unfair that the People of God don't want to see their musicians blessed. Their are good musicians and their are bad ones as their are good preachers (Pastors) and bad ones, but you guys make the good suffer for the bad and that's not fair at all. If they were playing music in a worldly band, they would get paid and no one would have nothing to say about them, but again, the so called people of God want them to give freebees. I am a full time Minister of Music and I spend a lot of MY time on the music, rehearsals, traveling,, spending money on music (sheet, CD'S, music books), Praise Team rehearsals, choir rehearsals, youth choir rehearsals, song leaders, Pastor call meetings, extra services, workshops, music conferences etc............ And trust me, I love the Lord, my church and my Pastor, but I have to live too. I don't get an outrageous salary, but I will stay their because I am committed. It's not just a job for me, it's my ministry and I give it my all with a small salary. By the way, for those of you who say we are not anointed,who made you the judge??? That's like musicians saying you not anointed to preach, now you wouldn't like that, would you??? You guys should think before you speak. I do say this in love, I won't lie it does upset me when people of God speak this way. You all sounds like you hate musicians but you need them so you tolerate them. That's not Godly. Now take your degrees and go to work for NOTHING. Tell your bosses you'll work for nothing because you're doing it for God. I didn't think so. Be Blessed!!!!!

[charlie]

I have read a number of the comments, pros and cons and it's a little sad that this is subjects causes such a big problem in the church. I came from the night club business and most of the clubs move to the DJ format, don't let this subject bother you, buy your church number of cd's with the background vocals and keep on praising God. the bottom line is that you want music. God has given you another avenue, it may not be what you want but it will work. supply and demand dictates the price. When push comes to shove should everyone who serve in the church get paid, from the ushers to the person cleaning the bath. I read some comments about working and then having your Boss not pay you. Have your boss done for you what God have done for you. Can your Boss do what God can do for you. For musicians that want to get paid, in the club business you have to come in and help create an atmosphere so you can get paid. I know you comments that you have to take care of, but where on that list does God falls. All I am saying is don't make it about the money. To the church if you can pay and help the musicians show our young people that they can make a living doing music for God, do it, if not get yourself a few cd's

[Pastor Lorenzo Edwards]

Most musicains that I have come in contact now learn to play by ear. I haven't seen a muscian use music sheets in years. And by playing by ear they do not spend that much time to learn the music. Like I said I am in Cali and Iam sure this is not everywhere. In LA it is so many churches most in need of music. And the muscians see it as a business adventure.
I would get paid much more to play than to preach is that right?

[Uniqueevan]

You probably would get more to play than preach because people these days prefer to hear music over preaching. It is a really sad situation. Even though I love music I'd prefer a sermon anyday. In the last few years, it seems like church choirs compete in entertaining than in ministering to to needs of the people.

[Pastor Lorenzo Edwards]

You hit the nail on the head with that one. It is almost like "the preacher or the music."

[Minister Paul Youngblood]

Well I do know of Pastors that do take Minister of Music positions as a supplemental pay,now whether or not you would be better off being a musician,now money-wise,that's debatable.I think across the board,Pastors are still leading even in the salary department.I only know of a handful of musicians making $100,000.00 a year,and that's on the local church level....but I can name at least 25 Pastors making that and more,and many of them are deserving of what they get,just as I think that the Ministers of Music are worth what they are paid.There are always going to be people who do well regardless of the amount of work they do,I mean even in your best business model..20% of the people do 80% of the work...it's the same way with tithes and offerings,if you had 20% of the people in your church tithing,that would be something.Even in the mega churches that we see on TV,the usual percentage of people tithing is anywhere from 6% to maybe 13 to 14% at the very highest level,so we see that financially across the board from the little house church to the 60,000 sq ft and above it's the same...and that's sad.But Uniqueevan is right when they say that church choirs do more entertaining than ministering.....and you are right...but I'm telling you as a matter of history,the musicians are not the blame for that,and I'm not going to debate that fact with you,cause I'm thinking I might be just a little older than you when it comes to this,and I'm not getting on you because of your age or anything like that,but when you have been this long enough to see how this art form has changed over it's decades of existence,to the current state of where it's at now,you would know first-hand how we got where were at...I've seen it,I've grown up in it,I deal with it on a day to day basis,and to be honest...some of it breaks my heart to see where we are now.....you would think with all of God's blessings and grace that has carried us through,we would be more mindful of the gifts that he has given us...but because we cannot come together as a wholly-jointed body of Christ,we are still fighting among ourselves over "mammon",still fighting over taking care of our own...because when I say our "own"...you have no idea the number of Black Gospel Musicians that have been "stolen"by the white Evangelicals and Penecostals because they wanted the "black"sound,a sound that they couldn't "study"or "learn"in their music colleges,so while we were "fighting"amongst ourselves...they come through the back door and offer starting salaries of $45,000.00 a year,plus an office,car allowance,moving expenses,that's right.....they will move you from another state,housing allowance........all while we still fighting.......you don't think it's true...well Isreal Houghton right here in my hometown was Minister of Music in the largest church in the Southwest portion of the United States....Lakewood...Pastor Joel Osteen........next time you see Rod Parsley on T.V.......look at who his organist and band members are.....they all came out of black,traditional,Baptist Churches.........so while we are fussing and fighting over how much they should be paid,and if they should be getting paid,other people are using these gifted people to help build their ministries....when will we wake up and see the light-Be Blessed

[DR.Marietta Brown]

I agree with most of what you are saying Minister Youngblood. The white Churches have the money to pay large salaries for musicians and you know who puts the money there, black people that want support there Black Pastors like that even thru the Black Pastors pray, pour into there lives and are there for them.I agree we have to come together as Black people and not fight and divide like we do.Never said a Musician should not be paid but the method they run around and demand large salaries with no commitment from Churches that dont have the resources.

[Minister Paul Youngblood]

Dr.Brown let me add this bit of information that hopefully will help Pastors when they are undertaking the hiring of a Minister of Music.The most impotant aspect is,what do you have to work with budget-wise???because in a lot of cases it determines who and what you are going to get.Now in defense of the Pastors that are going to read these post,let me step on some toes.....some Musicians toes..cause I believe in keeping it real,and I hope nobody gets their feelings hurt....but this ain't about what you feel........MOST OF YOU ALL ARE CHARGING TOO,TOO,MUCH!!!!THAT'S RIGHT!!!I SAID IT!!!...Now here's why I said it...because I know most of you if it came down to you really explaining to a Pastor WHY YOU CHARGE WHAT YOU CHARGE.....YOU COULDN'T DO IT!!!Because there is not a standard model in place for services rendered,then you have the luxury to charge what you think your services are worth.....until you run into somebody LIKE ME!!!!....who is "seasoned"and I know and can assess what your abilities are.Because if you ever darken the door of a church where I am in charge...you better have your program together,you better have a resume',and it better be up to date with contact numbers that I can call,and yes I am aware of state's laws regarding what your former church can and cannot say about you...Pastors take note of this because this is a serious legal issue that can get you sued......by releasing the wrong information about someone that was your "employee"AND THERE ARE SOME I.R.S.RULES CONCERNING THAT ALSO....and last but not least for you Musicians....I'm going to run a background check on you too......because you might be a child molester,a sex offender,an ex-con,have numerous DUI'S....when I get through with you...I will know all there is to know about you.Now some of you might take this as being a little harsh,but it is necessary,because Pastor's have a vested interest in you from a monetary stand point.And if you can't justify why you are asking for let's say $800.00 a week,when in reality you are really a $200.00 a week musician,then that is a clear case of......FRAUD....to put it nicely.......MUSICIANS.....STOP TRYING TO BLEED THESE CHURCHES FOR ALL THAT YOU THINK YOU CAN GET.Because it is very easy for you to fool most people into thinking that you all that and a bag of chips with a soda......until I walk in on one of your rehersals and listen to the what and how's and where fores of what you doing.....and find out you don't really have the skills and the foundational aspects of Church Liturgical Music Training to even be in front of a choir....you might have a good ear......but it takes more than a good ear......you might can play a few chords(and that's in the easy key signatures like B FLAT AND A Flat)but if I transpose it to F sharp,and A Major.....then I'm going to find out what you workin with.....see this is what I mean by telling it like it is.....there are a lot of Church's getting ROBBED!!!AND YOU MUSICIANS ARE GUILTY,AND YOU KNOW IT.When YOU START DOING RIGHT BY GOD...HE'LL DO RIGHT BY YOU!!!START GLORIFYING THE NAME OF JESUS,AND STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT YOU GONNA GET A CHANCE TO MAKE A CD.Pastors!!!!If your church cannot afford a $600.00 a week Minister of Music...I DON'T CARE HOW GOOD THEY ARE....DON'T HIRE EM!!!!DON'T SACRIFICE YOUR MINISTRY FOR MAYHEM,WAIT UNTIL THE LORD BRINGS YOU TO THAT LEVEL.I GURANTEE THAT ANYBODY...THAT GOES TO WORK AT MCDONALD'S,THEY GET A "STARTING SALARY OR WAGE...AND UNTIL YOU "PROVE"YOURSELF,REGARDLESS TO HOW GOOD YOU FLIP BURGERS...THEY GONNA PAY THAT STARTING WAGE..IF YOU DON'T LIKE...SOMEBODY ELSE IS WAITING TO TAKE YOUR PLACE........THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE AT OUR CHURCHES...THAT GOES FOR ME,STEVIE WONDER,LIBERACE,ELTON JOHN....AND EVERYBODY ELSE...WE'VE GOT TO STOP THIS MADNESS-BE BLESSED

[Minister Paul Youngblood]

Well,well,I see this discussion is still alive and going,and as I have stated in previous post,the only way for us to come to an understanding is through discussions such as this.I am always going to be committted to the service of the Lord and the ongoing of building His Kingdom.....at the same time after almost 40 years of being in Music Ministry and the preaching ministry,I do not classify myself as an authority in this because the face and character of ministry is ever changing.....I do not disagree with the old methods of how we use to do things,but at the same time,we evolve to meet the needs of this generation,and it is clear to me that the old way of doing things does not necessarily work in every suitation.Now what I am about to say is going to upset a lot of you,but sometimes medicine is bitter......but the properties that are incorporated for healing..is a mix of bitter and sweet,which simply means that you can't have one....without the other,so here it is......we are in the state we are in because of 2 groups.....Pastors and Musicians...who won't come together and resolve this age-old issue for the good of the whole.When I was growing up,church musicians were looked upon with respect and we aspired to be like them.They had a place of standing in the hierachy of the church and the community.Now here's what happened.....most of you know that in most of our churches back then....there WAS NO MINISTERS OF MUSIC!!!THEY WERE SIMPLY.."CHOIR DIRECTORS"or they were designated as musicians.Secondly...they were either women.......or......"gay",and the churches as a whole looked over this alternate lifestyle....because......"Oh......he's just gifted....or "that's just the way he/she is.Now let's put the blame where it should be put......most Pastors in those days would openly hire a "sissy"to build their choir,because most Pastors believed that they were "better"at what they did than normal straight people,and....they could "control"them through means of manipulation,because Pastor was..."Big Daddy"Last but not least,before the million dollar "salaries"of today's Pastors...even in the 50's,60's and 70's......most Pastors were living large..not all of them...but most of them.....the only people in my neighborhood that drove "Cadillacs" were the School Teacher...the Pimp....and the Pastor of large Churches.....and let me state this for the record...AT NO TIME DID I SEE...ANY!!!!......ANY!!!! MUSICIANS,DOING AS WELL,so subsequently as the times changed,and economic conditions changed,and congregations changed.....Pastors....DIDN'T!!!..YOU KNOW WHY????,because the demands of the music that you hear in most churches today comes from the dictates of the congregations and......once again.....the Pastors!!!!.Because whether they admit it or not,just like it was back in the day.....when you made one of those "sissies"mad...they would leave....and take half the church with them....so yes...I agree that the Word of God Should be the central attraction and that everything else is secondary.....but that blame has to be put on the "leadership"because THEY!!!!made the music an "issue",because THEY NEEDED IT TO FILL THE PEWS AND THE OFFERING PLATES WHICH IN TURN,FILLED THEIR POCKETS!!!,and the very same scenarios are being played out today,because people hear all the new music...they listen to it at work,they listen while they drive their cars(Pastors listen to it too),they listen to it at home,and they want to hear the very SAME THING AT THEIR CHURCH.....I know a lot of it is simply JUNK!!!!,but I am telling you that you can't blame musicians entirely for what is going on.The demands of a large church ministry are enormous...been there..done that...still doing it.......and for you who think it is a sin for a musician to get paid????you must be living on Mars...you theologians have you forgot your Old Testament history.....then go and study about the Music Ministry in that day,and you will find out that they were "counted among the number of the Levites"the Levitical Order of the Priests and they were "set aside"for the Music Ministry"they also were allotted "land"acres and acres of land,but nowdays a Pastor can make a six-figure salary and drive a BMW,BUT YOUR MUSICIAN HAS TO RIDE A BICYCLE TO MINISTER AT YOUR CHURCH????DOES THAT MAKE HIM MORE "ANNOINTED"OR MORE DEDICATED????NO!!!!IT MAKES HIM BROKE AND LATE!!!.And let me address Pastor Edwards comments......you are correct....most musicians do play by ear and they do play by ear and very little sheet music is used (but we still use it...those of us who can read sheet music)but their are a lot of Pators who did not go to seminaries and God has blessed them to have thriving,vibrant,revelant,ministries.....you don't go to school to "learn"how to preach......the seminary enhances.or should enhance and teach you those things you don't know.......but "preaching"(and I ain't talking about "whooping"is a "gift"...you either have it....or you don't....it's part of the Five Fold Gifts.....with emphasis on "gifts"which means you didn't do anything special to get it,nor did you do anything to "deserve"it......and all this "annointing"that is suppose to be some strange "power"to get people to get into...what's the saying now..."setting the atmosphere"...the atmosphere is set by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...not by a group of people.....I've seen people at churches sit and look at you like a calf looking at a new gate.and the Spirit was coming through the lights,chairs,the floor,so is it the musicians fault that they wasn't "into it"...and the answer that I would get from a lot of Pastors would be Yes...because if the service is not jumping...it's not the deacon sittin on the front row...SLEEP!!,it's not the people passing notes,candy,gum,........it's not the crying babies.....or the assistant ministers making "eyes"at some of them well-stacked "sisters"....OH NO!!!IT'S THE MUSICIANS FAULT!!!!COME ON MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS......be real........there are fences that need to be mended.A good musician will help build your church......and let me give you this last little bit of advice in love......if you take your car to the mechanic.....you will pay him......uh huh......if you go to the doctor,you are going to pay him........right????but see I know how we think,because most of you when it comes to the doctor,you say..."Well....I have insurance.....uh hum...well I guarantee that you won't ask any of them to do any of the above mentioned services...FOR FREE!!!!SO......WHY WOULD YOU WANT A MUSICIAN...WHO IS PERFORMING.....A...SERVICE.....TO DO IT FOR FREE.......and to you Pastors who preach for free.....that's not Scripture....you doing that because you want to,not because you have to...I know of churches that I played for,and I took salary cuts to help the church,I've bought instruments for start-up churches.and Yes!!!I have rendered service for "free"but God has elevated me to a level of service and dedication where my needs are met......wanna know how?????you guessed it....by Churches!!!!and I thank God for them......I'm doing what I love to do,I'm doing what I was called to do,I'm saved!!!sanctified.....and....PAID!!!!BE BLESSED!!!

[DR.Marietta Brown]

Minister Youngblood. No one says a Musician cant be paid. That is between the Pastor, the Church and the Musicians. We are saying and its so true that many Musicians will not submit to any Church, they run from place to place to see who will pay them the highest salary and they make ship wreck of there lives and many have died so young, because they are not accountable, they let there gifts from God be exploited for money and the devil lears them in with the wrong crowds and they self destruct. We have some truly Godly Musicians, they have submitted sowed good godly seeds and God has promoted them they are paid they dont struggle, they are paid because its there due season. They have submitted to a Pastor and been mentored and nutured in the Word of God and God has given them the increase. But we know thats not the case for many and yes Pastors and Evangelist and Musicians and Chrisitians should submit to God. a Pastor and the Word of God, Its is to much rebellion and wildfire in the Body of Christ in all areas. In another comment you made let me clear this , I have Pastored our Church for 10 years, we have never opened the doors of the Church . People just come and they stay and yes some leave and they have that right and freedom. We truly would not want any one that should not be in our Church and yes people leave. But not all this foolishness we are seeing. My late husband and I served two Pastors for 27 years before being released ,notice I stated being released in Ministry. We served one Pastor for 14years on the sea of Galiea in Jersaleum, our first Pastor after serving him for 14 years released us to a second Pastor. we did not know and we served the second Pastor that our first Pastor released us to for 13 years . After serving both Pastors a total of 27 years we were released by our last Pastor to start our Church. The first Pastor has passed and the second Pastor retired . We have been under the same Pastor since we started our Church. Yes we have a Pastor that we are vey loyal and dedicated to and we serve him. I work with 70 plus Pastors in my State for my Pastor as a Volunteer. Most Pastors I know have Businesses and Investments out side the Church as I do and are the top tithers in there Church as we are. We did not take anthing for over 5 years because we were building a Ministry and most Pastors that you see. God bless us . So why cant the Musicians and all the others come in and volunteer and do as we have done and let God bless them and than the Church will have to pay them. A Pastor and a Musician cant be compared. What ever is lacking Spiritually and Naturally the Pastor and family has to make up working free, finances, it may look like the people are giving a lot and in praying and fasting. A true Pastors Job never ends people sick, dying , families need counseling to keep the strife and all out by fasting and praying and working with the people. I could go on and on. When the people dont meet the financial needs, the Pastor and family have to sacrifice. We have to stop looking at money. Yes it takes money. I preached for 5 years three times per week. long nights in prayer and days working me and my children for free. So a Musician should come in pay no prices and all there needs be met and miss the process, we have been thru, I dont think so. We get out of everything including the Church and Gods work what we put in.I am not saying people have to serve 27 years like we did, that and the pay of a Musician is between God and them and there Pastors.This is just us talking. A great portion of the Pastors we speak with this is where they have needs, Musicians because they run from place to place for a dollar and want submit so we are talking. Praise God for all the good, Godly Musicians and there are many.Lets keep talking. Its great.. We need some Ben Tankards and Andre Crouchs, they at the time never took a music lesson , they had hands laid on them. Yes Musicians can be raised up. We know its God that raise them up. If they have a desire to play we can pray and annoit them with oil and believe with them. We had two different people in our MInsitry that had never touched a drum they wanted to play we annoited and prayed for them and they praticed and they both played for years in our Ministry. People that came in could not believe they had never played. They are still in our Minsitry they have been promoted but fill in as we need them.

[DR.Marietta Brown]

Bless you man of God.

[Minister Paul Youngblood]

Well Dr.Brown...I am not discounting what you are saying......some of the things that you mentioned to me have no revalance with what the basic discussion is....such as annointing them with oil...I've seen that done many,many,times and the person that got "covered"....most of them...all they got was "oily".....the oil only serves as a point of contact.there is no "power"per se in the oil,the power comes from God...so I've seen all of that,from the casting out of demons,to folks falling out on the floor.spitting and gurguling,being sussposedly.."purged"and got right off the floor......went home...and got in the bed,with.....a "man".....and they one doing all the spitting and purging.....was a "man",so there are a lot of issues that a lot of us don't want to deal with,and I think your example of what you related in your own personal experience should serve as a guide to and for commitment.But I also know that in the real world,that experience that you related happens few...and...far in between.It's not strange in these days and times that it happens....I mean........Judas sold Jesus out for thirty pieces of silver,they cast "lots"or the modern terminology of the exogesis of it is they shot "dice"at Calvary...so it's not surprising that people are "selling out",but I think that we are going to have to start doing more praying and teaching......less "oil annointing",and don't get me wrong,I believe the whole Bible as our example to be followed.But I find it totally useless to "annoint someone with oil",when I know that true "annointing"is the God given ability,and talent to carry out the measure of the gift that God has implanted in you to use for His Glory.......ere regardless to whether you get "the oil"put on you-Be Blessed