Water baptism does not save.

[Preacher]

for those who believe water baptism is required for salvation why the thief on the cross did not need to be baptized to be saved. A common reply to that question is: “The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant.” So, in essence, the same people who say the thief did not need to be baptized because he was “under the Old Covenant” will use John 3:5 as “proof” that baptism is necessary for salvation. They insist that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he too was under the Old Covenant. If the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized (because he was under the Old Covenant), why would Jesus tell Nicodemus (who was also under the Old Covenant) that he needed to be baptized?
the only baptism that washes away sin and brings salvation is that of the holy spirit..

When we are born again we are washed by the holy spirit, the word baptism means to (wash) at the very moment one becomes born again, they are washed and made sinless,the bible says,

1 Corinthians 6

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice verse 11 says we are washed by the spirit of God! not by water, the water is just an outward showing of whats going on spiritually,the water it self, has no power to wash away sins,we baptize out of obedience as did Christ,not that Christ had any sins of his own to have washed away, but in keeping things in order.

Mathew 3:1-13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

we obey once we become saved, its salvation and our new nature that causes us to want to obey God,not the other way around,so we see and understand that water baptism doesn't save, but being baptized with the holy spirit washes away sins,and brings salvation.

God Bless

[Zealot X]

You are correct, Pat. That would be a "work" to obtain salvation. Salvation is a gift that comes by faith.

Shalom

[James Pierce]

How about this: Let's shut our mouths, and go get baptized out of obedience.

[Della Morton]

LOL! James I am with you ! Let's Go! Walking Away!!!!!!!

[newview]

"...How about this: Let's shut our mouths, and go get baptized out of obedience..."

...and may His Name be blessed forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-)

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

It's not that easy for all, I take solice in the fact that the many prisoners without the oportunity of baptism that I minister to, ARE SAVED, when they recieve the Gospel of Jesus, and accept HIM as their Lord and Savior, JUST AS THE THEIF ON THE CROSS DIID,

HALLELU'YAH

[newview]

Sis,
I come from a denomination that cuts NO slack to death bed confessions of faith or in prison confessions.
However I am of the mindset that - there may be room.
And I say that because when the Philip gave the Ethiopian Eunuch the gospel and he believed and wanted to baptized - he asked - what doeth hinder me?
And what I got out of that is - if there is nothing to stop you from being baptized then you have no excuse - however if there no access - then it nothing you can do.
But if there is no hinderance --> you have no excuse for not being obedient to the commandment of being baptized for the remission of ones sins..

[Della Morton]

The most obvious question is:- When did this event (the thief on the cross) occur - was it under the OLD Covenant or the NEW Covenant? When Jesus gave salvation to the thief, was the Old Covenant still in place? or had the New begun? For clearly, it only became possible to become an actual CHRISTIAN (-born again - a member of Christ's body) AFTER the New Covenant had started. And for the New Covenant to begin, Jesus, the sacrificial Lamb had to die and also be RAISED FROM THE DEAD. The New Covenant could not begin until this occurred. Surely we all know this? Jesus had to die and be raised from the dead, and then ascend into heaven, sending His Holy Spirit, before the Church could truly begin or people could start becoming born-again Christians. That is why people in the Old Testament, or even in Jesus' own day were not "born again" the way we are today. They simply couldn't be. Remember, Jesus said that John the Baptist was the greatest born among men, but even the least in the kingdom was greater than he. John the Baptist couldn't become a "born-again Christian" because the New Covenant had not yet begun. I bet he would have loved the opportunity! Jesus died in agony and was raised again, to purchase for us this wonderful new life in Him. Surely we all know this? GLORY TO GOD!!

Now back to the thief. Did he have his conversation with Jesus and die under the New Covenant or the Old? The answer, obviously, is:- The OLD Covenant. He was presumably a Jew - one of God's chosen people (though a sinner), who received a wonderful pardon from Jesus when he repented and turned to Him. But those were very different conditions to those that we live under today. We now have a NEW Covenant - a NEW "agreement" with God, very different from the Old. The Old treaty is dead and we have a new and living way in which to walk. How do we enter into it? By being born again - of water and of the Spirit. And this has only been possible since Pentecost - the day the church began. I am not saying that "death-bed repentance" is not possible today. I'm sure that God has reached down in His mercy many times to people who have turned to Him when they were close to death. But these are special cases. They are not the "norm" for New Testament Christianity. Repentance, Baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit are ESSENTIAL to enter into the New Covenant, I believe.

I have no desire for nit-picking arguments. But the BIG issues, like New Testament salvation and God's plan for His church - these things I really do care about. For I believe the devil is robbing us blind in some of these crucial areas. And God wants to restore these truths to the church.

Just imagine for a moment that I am right, and baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit are a lot more important than we have been led to believe. Just think how many thousands of believers around the world today have received the Holy Spirit by speaking in other tongues, but have simply not bothered getting baptized. After all, it's only "symbolic", right? Or perhaps, they say, "I got sprinkled as a baby"? I myself know many, many people in this exact position. I think it's terrible, and I believe God does too. Not to mention all the believers who still have not been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Don't you think God's heart breaks over all this? Why do people ignore His commands? Our church traditions and habitual patterns have a lot to answer for in this area. This has got to change, friends. And I believe it will only change when the underlying doctrines are challenged. But if I am right, the devil will fight this all the way. He likes anything that leaves believers impoverished or still chained up in any way. This really is crucial doctrine, otherwise I simply would not bother with it. I have really stuck my neck on the line and jeopardized my reputation over this. And I do not do so lightly.

I have been accused of being "legalistic" and even teaching false heresy by a few of readers on Bpn. I really cannot see this. As I have said, some doctrine is "straining at gnats" and some is really crucial. I believe this issue falls into the second category. Now this is basic Bible doctrine we are talking about here, isn't it? Too literal? What on earth else should we be?
Other readers have brought up the verse in Romans that says "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead you will be saved" (Rom 10:9). Actually, a number of theologians believe that this statement was used as a kind of "baptismal confession" in the early church. I remember a fellowship I was involved with years ago that used it in exactly this way. To me, this verse "proves" little doctrinally, either way. It needs to be put into context with the WHOLE New Testament to gain the proper perspective on it. I certainly don't see it as proof for 'asking Jesus into our heart'.

One of the most serious allegations I have faced is that I am preaching a kind of "justification by works" by saying that baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit are so essential. And that I am "adding to the gospel" and taking away people's freedom like the Galatians!! Serious charges, indeed. But let's look at this carefully. Is baptism a "work" that I can do to myself? Is receiving the Holy Spirit a "work"? I don't think so! These are initial experiences that are 'DONE TO US' or GIVEN TO US - they're not things that we can "DO" ourselves, as such. Can I baptize myself? No! And isn't it a brief one-off act of simple faith and obedience anyway? To me, baptism is no more a "work" than, say, the act of "praying a sinner's prayer". The act of opening one's mouth, moving one's jaws and praying is not seen as a work. And neither should baptism be. They only take an instant, after all. The real question is:- Is baptism a truly spiritual act, or is it merely a symbolic ritual? That is the real question. This also brings up the whole issue of 'convenience'. For we love neat little packages that are comfortable and easy in this age, don't we? (-"Just asking Jesus in"). And baptism is so wet and messy, we think. But at the end of the day, what it boils down to is this:- We have to make a decision between doing things the Bible way and doing things the modern 'convenient' way. It is that simple.

[Della Morton]

Now, onto something else that numerous people raised:- Where does FAITH come into all this? Aren't we supposed to be saved by FAITH? Absolutely! And faith is at a premium right through this whole thing. What happens when someone hears the gospel and BELIEVES it? (-A crucially important moment). Are they automatically a 'Christian' now? Just through believing what they have heard? Or do they have to act on that belief in some way to become a Christian? Were the Jews who were 'cut to the heart' when Peter preached at Pentecost automatically Christians right then at that moment, or did they have to DO something in FAITH to become Christians? Clearly, they needed to DO something, because Peter told them, "Repent and be baptized, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." And it is clear that each one of these elements involves the exercise of faith in Jesus.

However, I believe that when the Bible speaks of the "FAITH THAT SAVES US", and being "JUSTIFIED BY FAITH", it is speaking of the LIFE OF FAITH that we undertake after we have become a Christian. It is 'WALKING IN FAITH' day by day, moment by moment, after having become a Christian that justifies us before God. It is the covering of the blood of Jesus that hides our sin and makes us clean in God's sight. If we are walking in faith, covered by the blood, we are saved, and we must continue to walk in it. And it is clear in the Scriptures that it is only by the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT that we can walk in this kind of saving faith. This faith is a gift from God -"Not of ourselves, lest anyone should boast..." Like the love of God, this faith is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, who is given to us. So how can we obtain it without RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT? (-Which brings us back to Repentance, Baptism and Receiving the Holy Spirit as our ESSENTIAL starting point in the faith).

Actually, a couple of readers mentioned something quite interesting about baptism in the book of Acts. For it is noticeable in Acts that everyone was baptized "IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS" or in the 'NAME OF JESUS CHRIST'. Now most churches today baptize in the name of the 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit', and I guess this is a small point, but I believe that if they felt it was important in Acts to speak the name of Jesus Christ over people as they were baptized, then I should do it too. I am not legalistic about the need for this, but personally these days I baptize people the Correct bible way in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST".
To sum up, it is my belief that God has been slowly restoring truth to the church over the centuries since the dark ages when so much had been lost. Luther's Reformation saw the restoration of 'Justification by Faith', the Anabaptists re-introduced baptism by immersion, Wesley re-introduced a number of important concepts, and this century the Pentecostals re-discovered the infilling of the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts. (There have been many other things over time also, but this is just a simple overview). It is my belief that we are now at the stage where God wishes to restore the church to her true original glory, with all the basic doctrines and practices, "church life" and the full original gospel, the 'five-fold' ministries, etc, etc, all intact. That is what is about to occur in the coming move, I believe. And that is another reason why I believe basic New Testament doctrines are important.

In past centuries, as now, the believers of that time walked in the light that they had, and God will judge them according to the light that was available to them. But now it is time to see the church truly restored to fullness in many areas. And it is going to be UNCOMFORTABLE, and it will surely leave much "SHAKEN" in it's wake. A new Reformation is coming, and it is important that it leaves nothing undone that needs doing. Otherwise our children are going to have to have a further Reformation to correct all that we left undone. Let's make it as complete as possible this time, shall we? For Christ cannot return until a glorious Bride is made ready for Him, without "spot or wrinkle or any such thing". Surely we live in the days of the 'restoration of all things' about which the Scriptures speak.

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

Ms. Della:

Speaking for myself, you and I and anyone else who believes water baptism is a prerequisite for salvation are going to have to agree to disagree - Period.

In His Grace,

[newview]

Sister Harris,

Remember when the men at Jerusalem - heard the gospel from Peter and they were pricked in their hearts?
They believed the gospel shared by Peter and then they asked:
What must must we do? And what did Peter say?
"O nothing more gentlemen, because you believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that's that"....No - Peter responded to these spanking brand new believers' request ----->He told them to REPENT and He told them BE BAPTIZED for the remission of sins

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

Sis. Newview,

With all due respect, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this subject.

Peace in Jesus

[newview]

"With all due respect, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this subject..."

Sweety - NO - lets not.
Lets get down to some kind of agreement because WE - you and I - do serve the same God.
Help me understand where we are veering away on this.
Please. :-)
Would you walk with me awhile?
Please :-)