Hip Hop in the Church

[Rev. Kenneth R. Jenkins]

I now understand more and more about this so-call world of "Hip-Hop". I understand now why "Hip-Hop"has really no place in our churches and yet it's slowly creeping in our church doors. After hearing all of this, I will stand behind fellow clergy members by NOT allowing "Hip-Hop" into our churches.

Pastors,Ministers and Church Leaders, would you allow "Hip-Hop" in your churches? Is this a way in keeping our youth in church? I am interested in all feedback concerning this issue.

[James Pierce]

Rev,

What was your answer? Is it sin, or is it not?

[Jonathan Anthony]

let hip hop stay in its original setting (the world); and keep it out of the house of God.

Wow based on this we need to just let the lot of them bust hell wide open, you cannot possibly be saying that are you?

[Tarik Al-Hadi Hodge]

Bro. Pierce,

That's a great question: It stomps all over the Spirit of the Ha'Torah!

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. Hip Hop is a religion (presumably religions have Gods)
Exodus 20:5...I the Lord thy God am a jealouse God, visiting the iniquity of the Fathes upon the Children unto te third and fourth generation of them that hate me. Hip Hop is diometricall apposed to all that is Holy! God hates Sin; they exalt sin!

exodus 20:8 Remember the Sabbath and KEEP it Holy. What is Holy about "Bend ovr B..."

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. The very nature of the songs uphold and support killing; we don't!
Exodus 20:14 thou shalt not commit adultery. This is the worst of all;the Spirit of Adultery is perhaps the most subtle of all demons:

Now let's just take the last one "Adultery" hm Webster 2 defines it as: 1. To Defile by Adultery. 2. To Corrupt, debase or make impure by an Admixture of a foreign or baser substance; to prepare (especially) for sale with one or more of the ingredients which are not part of the proffessed substance...

Now lets see what this argument is all about: we should take words from Psalms 33:1-4 " Rejoice in the Lord, O ye righteous: for praise is comely for the upright. Praise the Lord with harp, sing unto him with psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise. for the word of the Lord is right; and all HIS works are done in truth.

and mix it (admix, adulterate, and pawn it off as Gospel) with the beautiful, praise worthy sound of:

“Motherf***ers, I just bought some new Chuckers, old ones bloodied up from stompin’ out suckers.”
can you really feel the anointing in those words?
(this wonderful words are provided by the illustriuse 'Mike Bigga' from the edifying sound track of: I pledge allegiance to the "Grind" I am pretty sure that's a term used by homosexuals...another discussion.)

Now there's a great tune that just keeps those commandments workin fo ya..If you can't see why this is a bad idea I...really ...I can't help you! it just has no room in the Church at all!


Sincrely,

Pastor Hodge

[Bishop Derrick Day]

The seasoned saints should recognize and accept the changes in the musical program just as their elders had to endure the shift during their heyday...

[Katherine Harris]

Hip Hop is the youth's way of expressing God's Word in a way that draws other youth. I feel that a longs as the word of God is being preached, lives are being changed and souls saved, it is effective. It also keeps the youth from doing this in the streets or clubs. It speaks to them on their level. I look at it as a different interpetation of the King James versus the Living Bible. You have to catch a fish before you can clean it.

[Bishop Derrick Day]

Praise God for you, Sister Katherine!

[Tarik Al-Hadi Hodge]

Sis. Harris,

God bless you! the sad truth is, its not the young people doing this...(whatever young is) the reality is that Gospel rap is not going to keep "people" out of the clubs; its not stopping them from listening to the songs. What it does and what proponants of this "thing" won't tell you is, it legitimizes the songs that they already listen too. I can tell you this from my own personal experience with the mixing of Holy words with un holy music.

Maybe I am the one that is in err of the truth - perhaps I should go an tune into some snoop doggy dog and bring that into the pulpit, or even put a spinning bulb in the sanctuary - I just don't see how the tune to "I'm out to get mine" is going to encourage me to "take no other Gods" before him!

If anyone can help me understand how "I'm gonna blast you wit ma tech nine" or perhaps this great hit..."a B is a H.., Nver trust a B" wow that really gets the word of truth out! Hey here's a good one...Bend ovr B""" """""" gee don't you just feel the Holy Ghost in that song!!

Oh but there's more; how about "she's a super freak! oh man I''m sure if this is what the apostle Paul had in mind...afterall its just words right nobody ever listen to the words and the music...ah shux that's just a form of expression; no one woud ever remember that tune...do you see the logic in this argument? (or Lack thereof) Just because its manure does not mean its good for your lawn...some stuff you just have to throw away and this certainly qualifies for that category!

Roman's 8:13 If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live.

Now that's a word I can live by the plain and simple unadulterted word of God preached with the authority of the Holy Ghost! It is the Word of God that changes the hearts and minds of the people! the Word of God that clears the wa to deliverence! the Word of God that makes alive the hope of his Glory! The Word of God removes the stain within so deeply is the stain within the blood soaked banner of the cross of Christ the living saviour! Oh my God! how I love the Lord! The Lord that healed my dying body! the Lord that redeemed by hell bound soul! The Lord is my Shepherd! I will trust him!....Now I can feel the anointing moving...

[Jonathan Anthony]

What is amazing about your replies sir, is that you totally ignore the fact that no one here has said anything about bringing secular hip hop into the church.... You keep on plugging away at bringing Snoop's lyrics into the church, You sir are the only one saying this. I have not, none of the other Saints who advocate speaking the language of the culture to reach the culture, have said nothing about bringing the profane into the church. You have mentioned the darkness in hip hop, and I concede there is a lot of darkness in hip hop, just like there is a lot of darkness in other musical formats, but when the Clark Sisters brought in Jazz and R&B no one said a word, not even in COGIC, and they are their biggest fans. The Winans brought in R&B and even did a duet with Anita Baker, no one said a mumblin' word, not even in COGIC. Commissioned on their album Number 7 brought in house music (Luv U with the rest of my life), where was the outrage, there was none, why? I don't know. I have my suspicions, but I will keep those to myself... I asked the question what is the darkness in holy hip hop? I have asked the question, and so far both you and brother Miller have done nothing but two step and electric slide around the question. Music is like electricity, its the intent of the usage that makes it either holy or profane. So please if you wouldn't mind answer the question. You said I was running out of steam, you appear to be running away from the question. Oh and by the way, did you read my response to your assertions about Peter, and the topical information I posted about first century Galileans? Just curious.

[Rev. Spencer L. Miller]

Jonathan, whatever reply we give, you will continue to say we didn't answer your question. We have expressed over and over again what we feel the darkness in the so-called Holy Hip-hop music is all about. Here are more answers to your question, "What is the darkness in hip hop?" First, it is APOSTASY!! secondly, it brings WORLDLINESS into the church in an attempt to reach young people which in effect is PRAGMATISM. Third, it is mixed with CORRUPTION, because it has drawn secular record producers who see dollar signs and will think nothing about using the Name of Jesus to help make them rich. Let me ask you a question, would it be OK for the church to pass out free beer, in order to reach the alcoholic? Should the church show XXX videos to reach the sex addicts? Should the church pass out needles to drug addicts? I say give me that old-time religion, but you say "give me that showtime religion" , the Bible says, "feed the sheep" but it appears that you are saying, "amuse the goats". Again, lest you have forgotten, pragmatism is the notion that may be judged by their practical consequences (results), the pragmatist thinks a certain course of action (in this case hip hop music in God's house) is right because it is effective in bringing people who would not otherwise attend church to church. But Acts 2: 47b says, "...the Lord added daily such as be saved", the Lord added, not the Gospel Gangstaz, the Lord added, not Out of Eden--but the Lord! Here is something else the Bible says, "You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who choses to be a friend with the world is an enemy with God"- James 4: 4. What is the darkness in hip hop? READ YOUR BIBLE!!! "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of man (flesh), after the rudiments (ignorance) of the world, and not after Christ- Col. 2: 8. What is the darkness in hip hop? Again, READ YOUR BIBLE!!! "Do not be conformed any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and prove what God's will is--His good, pleasing and perfect will" - Romans 12: 2. This is the answer I offer to your question, "What is the darkness of hip hop?" If you don't understand it is because the gospel has been hidden from you. - II Corinthians 4: 3-4.

[Tarik Al-Hadi Hodge]

Amen! amen! amen! I am preaching that on Sunday! That's what I'm talking about Rev. Miller Bring the fire!

This is indeed the end time, when men will call that which is evil good and good evil! Bro. Anthony introduced the word Sanctify (1 Peter 3:15) interesting...from the greek: hagiasmos from te verb hagiazo meaning: the process or result of being made holy. when applied to things, places and people; "Set Apart" for the use of God... Set Apart; that which is cut off, not mixed in, separated, isolated from on thing for the purpose of another. The Hip Hop movement is right t be set apart for the worship of their god! they are being true to what they believe! they are being true to their religion - their culture - their way of life; they are not seeking peace with us! they are not seekig unification with us they are the manefestation of the evil that they represent!

we aught to be true to ours; we aught to be themanefestation that we represent. Once again good word, unfortunatly Bro. Anthony must be getting paid in order to not hear and not see that there is no fellowship with Holiness and wickedness.


Pastor Hodge

[Jonathan Anthony]

Jonathan, whatever reply we give, you will continue to say we didn't answer your question

Because in truth you haven’t.. I asked you to explain the difference between the darkness in secular hip hop, and holy hip hop, I even conceded that there is a darkness in secular hip hop. And yet you two brothers appear either unwilling, or unable to answer the question.

We have expressed over and over again what we feel the darkness in the so-called Holy Hip-hop music is all about. Here are more answers to your question, "What is the darkness in hip hop?" That my dear brother is not the question I asked you
First, it is APOSTASY!! secondly, it brings WORLDLINESS into the church in an attempt to reach young people which in effect is PRAGMATISM.

How is it apostasy? Once again using your logic, it can be said that ALL the music in the church currently especially the black church, is in a state of apostasy because given the beat and sound it sounds much like the same music one would here on a V103 R&B station. In fact many times during the given day one can hear Yolanda Adams, Dorinda Clark Cole, or even Marvin Sapp on these stations, and even during their “quiet storm” nighttime shows. Your platform and logic is flawed in that way, because all of it sounds the same, it’s the words that make it different, or if you are saying that it is not, then “Never would have made it needs to be scratched off the list as well because it is played on these same stations and during some of the hours that I mentioned. The reason you are not advocating the removal of the other singers and their music is because you sing it and they make money, it draws people to COGIC churches, and they bring their money with them. You would rather have one form of apostasy than admit that you are wrong on both ends. Pastor Hodge is not ignorant, he knows that music is a draw being a COGIC pastor he knows that when his choir sings songs like “My name is Victory” and “I am Healed” or when they sing the latest song by the hottest artists, that is a draw, and the offering for that day is larger than it was the previous Sunday. And you wish to speak of Pragmatism?? Choirs sing the hottest song, the pastor gets up lifts an offering immediately after the choir sings…. Oh and Pastor Hodge it is bad form to libel people in the middle of a debate. I realize that it is tempting to attempt to try to discern what my intent is, but in this case if a spirit is telling you I am getting paid for something, other than the IT work that I do, it aint the Holy Spirit…. (“Bro. Anthony must be getting paid in order to not hear and not see that there is no fellowship with Holiness and wickedness”) Bad form brother Hodge… I make no assumptions about you, nor do I attempt to paint you in a negative light, I do wonder about your prideful attitude at times, but I have learned to overlook that and try to see the man of God therein.

Third, it is mixed with CORRUPTION, because it has drawn secular record producers who see dollar signs and will think nothing about using the Name of Jesus to help make them rich.

I am sorry I did not know that Fred Hammond, along with the Clark sisters were so corrupt as to try to make their music sound like something pleasant to listen to.

Let me ask you a question, would it be OK for the church to pass out free beer, in order to reach the alcoholic? Should the church show XXX videos to reach the sex addicts? Should the church pass out needles to drug addicts?

I have advocated no such thing. I never have, so your misdirection fails here, as it is not relative to the conversation we are having. Tell me Spencer, how do these lyrics sound
you loved so you came,and you died then you rose again
Because you loved me unconditionally
You looked beyond my wrong and shame
brought me from darkness into reality and now I'll never be the same...".
You’ve got my full attention
My minds open wide
My heart’s right behind it
So come on and live inside
I’m not to young to know
And never too old
You love me
And oh how I need you so…

These lyrics do not speak of any darkness my brother, or would you deny that as well? Tell me these lyrics are demonically inspired?
These lyrics do not speak of corruption, or would you level so heavy a judgement on them as well?

I say give me that old-time religion, but you say "give me that showtime religion" ,

Actually I do not say either, I have no time for religion… I would rather have a relationship with the lover of my soul. If its religion you are after, or that you peddle, we can end the conversation now, because I am into bringing people into relationship with their Savior, religion tends to keep people away because of all the rules and regulations. Jesus stands against religion. I don’t want,no one wants rules and regulations clouding the need for a relationship with God. Jesus came to destroy religion, not to have you exchange one for another. If you want your old time religion, where you cannot skate, cannot go to the movies, cannot enjoy your life and wind up looking like you spent you life eating lemons go right ahead


the Bible says, "feed the sheep" but it appears that you are saying, "amuse the goats". Again, lest you have forgotten, pragmatism is the notion that may be judged by their practical consequences (results), the pragmatist thinks a certain course of action (in this case hip hop music in God's house) is right because it is effective in bringing people who would not otherwise attend church to church. But Acts 2: 47b says, "...the Lord added daily such as be saved", the Lord added, not the Gospel Gangstaz, the Lord added, not Out of Eden--but the Lord! Here is something else the Bible says, "You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who choses to be a friend with the world is an enemy with God"- James 4: 4. What is the darkness in hip hop? READ YOUR BIBLE!!!


WHY IS IT THAT WHEN MEN DO NOT HAVE AN ANSWER THEY WILL ADMONISH PEOPLE TO READ THE BIBLE WHEN THEY KNOW THAT UPON A CERTAIN ISSUES THE BIBLE IS SILENT, LIKE DATING, HIP HOP, RECIPIES FOR BROILED SALMON..

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of man (flesh), after the rudiments (ignorance) of the world, and not after Christ- Col. 2: 8.

So you are comparing following Jewish laws and customs with Hip Hop… Context my brother please tell me that you knew that was what Paul was speaking about…


What is the darkness in hip hop? Again, READ YOUR BIBLE!!! "

That is not the question I asked you. Why are you behaving in such a childish manner attempting to circumvent the question as asked? What is the darkness in holy hip hop, you cannot use the examples of the profane, why? Because by definition they do not apply…Why don’t they apply, because the lyrics are different, the intent is different, the effect is different. The beat is meaningless, Do you really think that God is so stupid as to account for the beat and discount the words? As many scripture references as there are with regard to words and things that are spoken, and the fact that we are to be judged not by the beat that is used, but every word that we speak (Matt 12:36).

Do not be conformed any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and prove what God's will is--His good, pleasing and perfect will" - Romans 12: 2.

No one is saying conform. But since you are saying that we are, take it all the way there my brother, this of course means that only the old hymns by Fannie Crosby, and other 18th and 19th century lyricists will be sung in your church. This also means that no more songs by Fred Hammond, Richard Smallwood, Andre Crouch, Jonathan Nelson, or even Joann Rosario. What time should I join you in protesting outside the Stellar Awards Ceremony this weekend? I am in earnest, if you are willing to go all the way there, I will join you in Nashville on Sunday and protest with you. After all 90% of all gospel music sounds like what comes on most pop and R&B radio stations.

This is the answer I offer to your question, "What is the darkness of hip hop?" If you don't understand it is because the gospel has been hidden from you. - II Corinthians 4: 3-4.

By the way the reason I do not accept your answer because it is a non answer to the question as posed. You are telling me the darkness in hip hop, I did not ask you for that. I already conceded that there is darkness in secular hip hop, In a debate as this is, you cannot use a conceded point in order to make your point. You have to be original. You have dodged, danced around and even ducked my question. If we were in court I would be asking the judge to instruct you to limit your answer to the question as asked. In a debate you answer directly the question as asked, you do not get to choose how to answer, you simply provide an answer. If you do not have one, simply say so.
So now you are questioning my salvation because I do not agree with you. WOW, it has come to that Spenser, and I thought more highly of you than that. I would not ever question another person’s salvation because they do not agree with me. That is silly, that is foolish, that is dangerous. Lets cut to the chase, the conclusion of the matter if you will, as there are far more important things that beg for my attention at the moment.
1. You do not like hip hop, in any form
2. You are willing to use the Bible to make your point
3. You could care less what anyone has to say about the subject, you do not like it.
4. You see any attempt by anyone to use it as a threat to your stance so you are willing
To vilify, and demonize them in an attempt to bring them under “control of the spirit”
5. You see anyone involved with Hip Hop as unregenerate hell bound, and you would do nothing to stop them on their journey.
6. Your personal dislike of the music, has blinded you to the people, and instead of praying, instead of wanting to minister to them, you would consign them to hell. Neither of you have said one word, not one single solitary word about reaching out to any of them. I have heard you demonize them, something not even Christ in his time did while He was here.

These based on your attitudes and writings here appear to be your stance. I am fine with it. I have not run out of steam I simply see no more need to argue with you. I have better things to do with my time than to argue with men about issues that they are resolute about, regardless of how wrong I may believe them to be. Had you told me that the behavior of some of the Holy Hip Hop artists were unregenerate I would have accepted that as a valid answer. Instead you painted with a very broad brush. That’s just like saying that all pastors are crooks and simply after the money. I know better because I was raised better

[Bishop Derrick Day]

Brother Anthony, that is the way to end a debate. This was an absolutely brilliant display of forensic technique. The only way anyone can summon a disagreement with this is to simply admit they have no love for any music outside the standard hymnal.