Why do I being a gentile need to follow the Mossaic Law?

[Rev. Eric Culberson Jr.]

In reading the different dicussions on the site I love it because I am always looking to talk the Word over with fellow believers, and were there are disagreements I love to hear the different view points wether oe not i agree with them. And during the course of reading I have noticed that there are some Messianic Jews that add to the disussions on here ( and some are right on it), but I am wondering why would people who were gentiles by birth need to follow something that was never meant for them i.e. the Law.

Paul wrote many of his letters to refute the very fact of judiazers telling gentile believers that they had to follow the Law as well as believe in Jesus. Or even the fact that Peter and Paul had a disagreement over this very subject:

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is my belief that the Law was given by God to the Jews. But Christ came for All, and fulfilled the Law so why do I have to go back to following something that has already been fullfilled? Very interested in hearing your thoughts!!

[James Pierce]

Culberson,

The commandments that Yochanan wrote of in 1 Yochanan 5:3 are exactly the same commandments as the Father. You see, Yahshua, as he always explained, did not come in his own teaching, and his own glory. He came in the teaching and glory of his Father.

Yahshua is the expression of Yahweh, and so when he said keep his commandments... the only commandments he was referring to were his Fathers. I challenge you though. Take a list of Yahshua's commandments, and I promise you that there will be a matching scripture from the law itself. Why? Because Yahshua is teaching and living his Father's commandments.

Its impossible to get around what 1 Yochanan is saying. The only thing you can resort to is the belief that Yochanan is not really talking about Yahweh's commands, but Yahshua's commands, as if they have 2 separate commands. Culberson, If Yahshua is Yahweh, then there is no 2 laws, rather. 1 law that they both teach. Think brother!

Yahshua's commands ARE the Father's commands. DO NOT be deceived.

[Rev. Eric Culberson Jr.]

That's fine James! Again I truly hope you read all of what I said as it was from the heart and not an attack on you. I did not write it to get back into a debate with you. I've said what I said and stand by it, the purpose of what I said was to prayerfully make you aware of something that I saw about you not to argue over the word with you as I've done in times past. So I can truly say now I know where you stand, and you by now should know where I stand and we can agree to disagree.

In Christ,
Eric Culberson Jr.

[James Pierce]

Culberson,

Forgive me if I come off that way, but I stand by the way I present the word of Yahweh.

Be blessed,
Yaakov Ben Yaweh

[Anna]

Mackey:

I hope you realize that when we see the term "the law" in our Biblical texts, we must based upon all relevant scriptural texts, determine what law is being referenced to.

I submit the only law that could be referenced here, which Paul explains the "law" that we are free from and that the "law of Sin and Death"

Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me ***free from the law of sin and death****

God's Law, His commandments are in no way defined as the "law of Sin and Death". We cannot be free from God's law, since He has promised to write it in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant! Hebrews 8, Jeremiah 31.

Paul spoke positively that God's law is holy.
David said God's law "converted the soul"

To repeat, Paul NEVER transgressed either the Laws of God or of his people, this comes from his own testimony. How therefore could he teach others to break God's laws, which Jesus taught against in

Matt.5
[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul's testimony regarding his own conduct in reference to God's law, and the laws of his people:
Acts.24

[14] But this I (Paul) confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Acts.25
[8] While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

Paul was not a LAWLESS man as some claimed was his practice and teaching.

Mackey, do you teach that Paul dishonored God's laws?

If so, where is your test to support your view. From Paul's own words above, he did not break the Sabbath, nor any of the other laws of God which you teach should be disregarded, a teaching of yours that is contrary also to Jesus words in Matt. 5:19.

I agree that no one is saved by the law, but since keeping the law of God is central to the New Covenant, how can you live a life of breaking God's law/breaking His covenant, and expect to be pleasing to God and to be blessed by God?

"The Spirit" which dwelt in Christ, enabled Him and all of us to "keep the commandments of God".

Paul says regarding God's laws, which point you seem to miss:

Rom.3

[31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom.6
[2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law (of sin and death), but under grace? God forbid.

[James Pierce]

Rev,

However, Jews and Gentiles are now instructed to achieve justification by faith in Jesus Christ. Yes, we are indebted to keep the Law. But the question is how? We keep it or establish it by faith (Romans 3:31).

Greeks are abstract thinkers, while Hebrews are concrete thinkers. What does this mean? An example, Greeks would say,"believe in lord Zeus, and you will be saved." This belief is only a mere belief, not neccessarily including an action. Hebrews say,"Believe in Yahshua, and you will be saved." In Hebraic understanding, this belief is not a mere belief, for even Yaakov says demons believe, and tremble. This Hebraic belief in Yahshua is always accompanied with action. In other words, you believe, and then you do what Yahshua commands.

We do not keep the law by mere faith/trusting in Yahshua, rather, we keep the law by actually "doing the law". makes sense? Another example is when Yahshua always say,"let him who has ears, hear." This is connected with the Hebrew understanding... Sh'ma. This word in Hebrew means "Listen", but it has more of a meaning than a mere listen. When Yahweh says,"Sh'ma Yisra'el", He is telling them that what he is about to say is very important to their faith, and that whatever is said, must be obeyed.

What does grace mean to me? Well, let us look at it from a law perspective. From this perspective, to have grace is to have mercy. When Sha'ul said we are not under law, but under grace", what he means is that we are not under its curse----condemnation, sin, death. We receive grace when we as followers of Yahshua sin. I hope this is a better definition for you. I am not sure if you read my whole article, but I think I made it clear when I said salvation by grace through faith in Yahshua.

El Baruch(God bless),
Yaakove Ben Yahweh

[Eric M. Mackey]

I hope you see that "I hope this is a better definition for you. I am not sure if you read my whole article, but I think I made it clear when I said salvation by grace through faith in Yahshua." contradicts what you are saying. I noticed that you carefully avoided much reference to the Book of Romans. There Paul tells us that salvation and righteousness are by grace through faith and not by keeping the Law. If we don't disagree on this then we don't have an argument. Otherwise, you are contradicting yourself--"We do not keep the law by mere faith/trusting in Yahshua, rather, we keep the law by actually "doing the law"". The Law is kept by faith in Jesus Christ. He is our surrogate Law keeper. Moreover, a one time confession of Jesus Christ as Lord and a belief from the heart that God raised Him from the dead fulfills the Law (Romans 10:9-10). If you think that this is too easy or too good to be true then you don't like God's grace. And you are assuming that He did not see His Son's own crucifixion as a one time super sufficient sacrifice for sin.

Eric.

[James Pierce]

Rev,

I'd like to point out something that has been a stool to most Christians. You said Yahshua was our "surrogate law keeper." In other words. Yahshua kept the law for us. This can't be further from the truth. This promotes lawlessness brother, and no one who practice such shall enter eternal life. It's not a mere belief and confess my brother, rather it is both of those, and then an obedience to his law.

You cannot claim to follow Yahshua, and leave out the very holy standard. How exactly can you stay away from sin without the law?

I love Yahweh's grace. I truly see Yahshua's sacrifice atoning for our sin, but that does not cancel obedience to his law. You must read the bible from a Hebraic understanding, but its very obvious that you are thinking in ways Greeks think. Its not actually your fault in that sense, for you were taught that style of thinking.

Being that most followers of Yahshua are Gentile, you'd expect Gentile thought to rule the interpretation of the scriptures. But, now you know that you must reset your mind to Hebraic thinking. In that, and only in that will you be able to truly understand the scripture.

[Eric M. Mackey]

Man,

We will never be on the same page. God bless you too.

Eric.

[James Pierce]

Rev,

May Adonai shine his blessings, and truth upon you.

El Baruch,
Yaakov

[Anna]

Mackey:

Paul, your favorite teacher, whose teaching you honor more than Jesus own teaching (contrary to Jesus' injunction in Matt.7:24) says:

Rom.8
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

This can truly be applied to teachers such as yourself who have rejected the Law of God and even impugn the law of God equating it to be a "sin generator"! How ludicrous!!!

God's law has NEVER BEEN A SIN GENERATOR!
God's law is foundational in BOTH covenants.
God's law is to be written in the hearts of New Covenant believers
God's law is summarized in detailing to us how to love God and to love our fellow man.

The OT and NT scriptures all contradict this statement that you have made.

God said in:

Deut 5:29
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Only a sadistic God, which is an attribute of the God you teach and believe in, would give men commandments, ask men to keep them, ask them to "be perfect" yet unknowingly to the men He give His laws, those same commandments makes the sin more!!!! What you are teaching, is the equivalent to the evil acts of the white man in early America, giving the Indians blankets which had been used on people who had diseases to which they knew the Indians had no resistance! It did not provide the Indians with the warmth and comfort they hoped, it made them sick and caused their deaths!

Since sin is the transgression of the law and the wages of sin is death, your teaching is essentially that
God gave man laws which were not good, so that man could sin more, and lead to more wickedness and therefore man's death and destruction!

Lets read in the NT where we find the Paul's own view about God's law was POSITIVE in

Rom.7
[12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

How can the "law' both be "holy, just and good" and also be a "sin generator"??? That would make God's law unholy, not good and definitely not just....

By your statement you are therefore are making YHWH who created and gave men his Holy law for their good, His to live their lives by to know how to love Him and to love his fellow man, you are making Him the one who is the ORIGINATOR and PROMOTER of a "sin Generator"!

You have unfortunatelyaccepted a mistranslation of Romans 2:20. which in earlier English translations the word "sin" was translated as "guilt".


Wycliffe Bible:
Romans:
5:20 And the law entered, that >***guilt*** should be plenteous; but where >***guilt***</</u>b> was plenteous 5:21 grace was more plenteous,.


This is confirmed by Paul himself in

Romans 3:19
"Now we know that what things soever the law says, it says to them who are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become ***guilty*** before God

Therefore, the law was a "guilt" generator, not SIN generator!

God gave his law to generate "guilt" to bring man into repentance, not into more sin.

I implore you Mackey that before you lead yourself and those who you teach to the place before the Lord, that many Christians find themselves in Matt. 7:23-

Matt.7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (lawlessness).(G458
1) the condition of without law

a) because ignorant of it

b) because of violating it

2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

That you search the scriptures not just Paul's writings which Peter said were hard to understand and many would in wrongfully interpreting them, them end up being destroyed:

2Pet.3
[16] As also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Paul himself enjoined you to use "all scriptures" to verify doctrine, not just his writings, which you in this case have not done.

2Tim.3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Other NT texts which undisputable teach that is it essential to keep the Commandments of God, and those who DON'T aren't they called "liars":

1John.2
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


1John.3
[22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
[24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


1John.5
[2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
[3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


2John.1
[6] And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.


Rev.12
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev.14
[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I suggest that regarding Paul's teachings that you follow the example of the Bereans in Acts 17, they searched the scriptures to see if what Paul and Silas were preaching was true.


Acts.17

[10] And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
[11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

If you have also done this, please share with us what scriptures that the Bereans would have then read, teaching/.explaining that God's law is a "sin generator".

If you cannot find any texts, if you don't want to be guilty of false teachings, you need to repent of the errors in your teaching and publicly correct them.

P.S.:

Jesus kept all His Father's commandments.

Abraham kept God's law, David kept God's law to mention to whom God had a close relationship:

Do you disagree with David attitude toward's God's law in

Pss.119
[18] Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
[29] Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.
[34] Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
[44] So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
[51] The proud have had me greatly in derision: yet have I not declined from thy law.
[53] Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.
[55] I have remembered thy name, O LORD, in the night, and have kept thy law.
[61] The bands of the wicked have robbed me: but I have not forgotten thy law.
[70] Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.
[77] Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.
[85] The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.
[92] Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.
[97] O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
[109] My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law.
[113] I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.
[126] It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.

[Anna]

Greetings Pastor Eric:

I just read your blog and thought I would begin to answer some of your many questions. I have been in what is called the Messianic faith for over 30 years, after attending many Protestant churches and comparing them to what I saw in the Bible and in the life and teachings of Jesus, what I saw in them was primarily teachings of doctrines and commandments of men.

You asked why should a Gentile keep the Law of Moses, which was actually just another term for the Laws/Commandments of God, given through Moses.

Interestingly one "Law of Moses" is the law regarding TITHING, which most preachers don't want to call it part of the law of Moses, since they don't want it to have been "NAILED TO THE CROSS"!!! How convenient.......

I must ask you, in the "New Covenant" who does God make it with? Who are the parties of this contract? Does God say he is going to make a "New Covenant" with the Gentiles?

I have copied below for you so don't have to look it up.

Jer 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Then what is the core of this covenant, that is to be written on THIER hearts?

Jer. 31: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward pars, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people

This text is repeated in Hebrews 8.

God makes His covenant, ONLY with Israel and Judah. He never, never says He is going to make a "New Covenant" with the Gentiles. of which you admit that you are. So how do you get into this covenant, along with Israel and Judah, if you don't want the law written in your heart?

God isn't going to have "two sets of children" with different laws for the Jew vs the Gentile.
As Paul in Ephesians says you were strangers to the covenants of Israel, but now you are "brought nigh" brought INTO IT, including all the terms of the covenants which includes both the laws and the promises.
In Ephesians 4 Paul says:

vs 11] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
[12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Here are just a few verses from the NT which validates what I have said about our requirement to "Keep the commandments of God"

1John.2
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1John.3
[22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

[24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1John.5
[2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

[3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2John.1
[6] And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rev.12
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev.14
[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Finally Malachi 4 closes the OT, with the command directed at the "end times" to keep God's Commandments given through Moses:

[4] Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
[5] Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
[6] And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Based upon these texts, why would you wish to "forget the commandments of God" which He gave through Moses?

[Rev. Eric Culberson Jr.]

Well then if you want to go there and profess that one should want to be a Jew and quote Paul, did not he also say "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." When I posed the question it was under the bases of national orgin, race, I am not by birth from the womb of my mother (even with some of the outlandish stuff that comes across this network) a Jew. And God gave Moses the Law to a specific group of people, of a specific ethnicity. Where you and I and many others on here disagree at is what is meant when you quote keep my commandments. And again I will pose this question to you as I have a few others was the tithe first introduced with the law or before the law?