Can We Eat Pork, Shellfish, And All Torah Forbidden Foods Under The New Testament?

[James Pierce]

Anyone?

[Zealot X]

@ Trevor,

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: "

Alright. I think you need to slow down and really read the text you are trying to quote. He said "to whom we gave no such commandment". This means that they were not told go telling anyone to get circumcised. It didn't mean that anything they said was actually wrong, only that they weren't told to say it. See, you have to understand what was going on at the time. If you ignore the context of the story you will see how easy it is to get confused. Do you think all Israelites LIKED the gentiles? No. These were human beings. Love was not perfected in them. They hated Rome. They hated Roman occupation. And these feelings spilled over into those FROM Rome who wanted to be converts. This was an effort to turn them away by attempting to make the conversion process as hard as possible. I would invite you study modern day pharisaic judaism although I'm not a part of it. It is in the tradition of the pharisees and so in a way you can get a glimpse into their religion. Even in modern Judaism a convert is not expected to adhere to all of Torah on day one. Conversion is a LONG process, not a short one. It is easy for a Christian to misunderstand because they know very little about Judaism and their conversion happens in the blink of an eye, relatively speaking (which honestly is why it doesn't always take).

Here is a modern Jewish article about the conversion process. Pay attention to points 3-6 and tell me if me running after you with a knife to cut your foreskin as soon as you have a desire to follow Judaism is the right thing to do.

http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=27282

Also, Judaism STILL requires sabbath and other national observances. Here are more resources backing up my point.

http://www.judaismconversion.org/
http://judaism.about.com/od/conversi2/f/convert_process.htm
http://judaism.about.com/od/conversiontojudaism/Conversion_to_Judai...

Assuming you are not lazy and you have read at least enough material to know that the process of conversion is lengthy and involves choosing to follow the beliefs and practices of the Israelites you should also be able to agree that these men who "went rogue" were outside the authority of the leaders of the congregation for a very specific purpose. They didn't want the gentiles to convert. What the gentiles were told then is just what a rabbi would tell you now. It's no different. A rabbi will tell you to abstain from certain things but the process is about YOU LEARNING. Of course I can understand why Christians would not understand. The church tells them what to do and there is little freedom of thought. If someone disagrees they start a whole new denomination. But in Judaism it wasn't meant to work that way. A rabbi oversaw your development but he did not sit there demanding you chop off your foreskin. He was there to teach you Torah and make sure your questions were answered. By every estimate I have seen in Judaism the process lasts for at least 6 months. To bully a convert in the first 6 months is only for one thing; to discourage them from continuing. The apostles could clearly see that and that is why they said that they hadn't told anyone to come against them saying all these things they had to do.

The idea that the apostles were like mini-Moses...es.... is a Christian idea. None of them ever claimed such authority. They weren't lawgivers. They were teachers. A teacher doesn't give you Physics when you're still counting on your fingers. The process of conversion was never that difficult or painful.


shalom

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Do you even understand what the term Apostle fully means? Lets cover that one first, because you are speaking in TOTAL error concerning the office that James, Peter, John, Matthew, Matthias, James (John's brother), Judas, Silas, Paul, Barnabas, Titus, Timothy, Thomas, and many other held.

[Zealot X]

An apostle is not a lawgiver. Feel free to prove otherwise.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

I have some things to say concerning diet:

Yes, the eating of pork and shellfish can be unhealthy because a crab or lobster is nothing more than an ocean roach! Too much swine can be toxic in your system as well. I eat neither one of these things for health reasons. However, to say that food can make one holier and more acceptable in GOD's eyes contradicts everything taught by the New Testament Apostles, Prophets and Teachers. Food deals with the physical body and certain food won't make you feel better physically, however it is FOOLISHNESS to ascribe physical food for spiritual matters.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

I think one should stay away from unclean foods, first, because Yah commands it, then second, for health reasons.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

That would be true for the nation of Israel. However, the rest of the world under the covenant that Noah had with GOD never had such a mandate. Let us get this clear right here and now: there were others who served the true and living GOD of Heaven that were NOT apart of the covenant of Israel. Therefore, would you want to impose rules of a covenant onto a person who is not even apart of that particular deal? Thats like me holding you to a contact that I didn't specifically make with you. So it is with the covenant that GOD made with Israel. It can be easily seen with the Nazarite vow: did all the Israelites have to uphold it, or that specific person? So it is with the covenant made on Mt. Sinai.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Its true for the nation of Israel, and also true for those who attach themselves to Israel. Every covenant in the bible was only made with Israel. I'd love, if you can, to name one covenant that was made for Gentiles(non Hebrews). If the covenants were made with Israel, then those who join with Israel in the covenant are to adhere to the same Torah. This should not be questioned.

You stated that there were people who served Yah that were not under the covenant. I'd love for you to name those people, because as the book of Deut clearly shows, serving Yah is keeping His Torah. So, I'll be waiting for the list of people who served Yah without keeping His word.

The Nazirite vow was not a commandment, but an optional ritual. Do not say that this covenant being optional goes with the Sabbath, dietary instructions, or any of those COMMANDMENTS. They were NOT optional.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

I can EASILY prove that: Check ALL the covenants of Genesis, for they are ALL before Mt. Sinai, all before Moses was even born.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

They were the patriarchs for the Hebraic people, so you cannot add them in a class like that. Because as Genesis says,"They obeyed the commands of Yah."

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

A Brother Trevor

Israel is the Church. A nation of Priests, and if you are engrafted into the congregation of the Nation of Israel, then you will be a Priest of God. Until you put down your Pagan believe system, you will be as you are in the Gentile Church of Vanity, which will cost you your life in the second death. On your question, Do you not pick out your church because you think they teach the truth? If you do then, you have to look on Israel, and see if they are teaching the truth, if they are, then you come under that covenant, just as you would at the Gentile Church you attend. You ask of the covenant on Mt. Sinai. The covenant that Jesus spoke face to face with the people is still good, but it was not perfect because they sacrificed animals for sin, and animals could not take away sin when you repented. Jesus killed the animal sacrifice, and his blood can take away sin when you repent. Repentance with out works is dead, so you must continue to keep the commandments, Feasts, and ordinances. If you fall, and sin, get back up, repent for it, and keep it moving. You must be MINDFUL of what you do, and try your best not to sin. I can on and on, but I hope get the pic.

[Zealot X]

The rest of the world doesn't have a "New Covenant" though. So you cannot claim to be under the new covenant without being grafted into Israel.

shalom

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Can you show me how the covenant itself was faulty versus how the Israelites were faulty?