New Covenant Debate.............

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

There has arisen an issue concerning the details of the New Covenant that our LORD and Savior YESHUA/JESUS has won for us by HIS blood and grace. Therefore, we are opening this discussion and starting it off for the edifying of the saints and the settling of the matter:

The subjects for this debate are along two lines:

-Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8: Do we still stand on the Torah?
-the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?

[Anna]

I hope you accept the prophetic book of Zechariah, when in chapter 8 he says the the Gentiles, would seek the Jews to be taught in the last days, a yet future prophecy, and guess what the Jews would teach the Gentiles? They will teach them TORAH!
There will be "One Law" not two as you falsely teach - by your saying that there is one for Israel and Judah and another for the stranger-

Exod.12
[49] One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num.15
[16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
[29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. )

Zech.8
[23] Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying,
We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Trevor, do you call yourself a JEW?

Since this is a prophecy yet unfulfilled, do you think YOU are one of these Jews who people from 10 nations will grab your "skirt" (tzitzit - fringes?

Do you wear fringes/tzitzit like the Jews?

If you are not a JEW, and if you do not wear tzitzit, you will not be one whom the Gentiles will seek for the truth in the end of days

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

If your purpose here is to convert me to your doctrine, then grab some more coffee and get me a few cups as well, cause we're gonna be here fore a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time!

I didn't say that Gentiles are not to adhere to Torah. Thats the doctrine of the "7 Laws of Noah", which is found in Talmudic writings. I said that Torah is abolished because the new covenant does not go by the Law of Moses, but the Law of CHRIST. Jew and Gentile both are going to adhere to the Law of CHRIST, or the Lake of Fire is their home for all eternity.

THAT is the raw basics: Law of Christ, not Law of Moses.

[Anna]

Trevor, Did Christ have a different law than His Father?

Did our Messiah ever break any of the laws of His Father?

BY the words of our Messiah's mouth, he never broke any of His Father's commandments, which was the Torah, which is the Law of Moses.

John.15
[10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments (Torah), and abide in his love.

Yes, even as you check Revelation, it is in agreement with the keeping of the Law of Moses:

Rev.12
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God (Decalogue/Law of Moses/Torah), and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev.14
[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God (Decalogue/Torah/Law of Moses), and the faith of Jesus.

So, yes Trevor, you are correct, we DO need to keep the Messiah's sayings/teachings commandments, but in this final book of the NT, you should be able to see that
we are required to obey BOTH the FATHER and the SON. Yahshua always pointed men to keeping the commandments of His Father. He even said, MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD/YHWH.

The TORAH proceeded from the mouth of YHWH/GOD, didn't it??? Then if you are to be OBEDIENT TO OUR MESSIAH, it is incumbent upon you to keep the TORAH.

The Bible is consistant, it is you man made doctrines that are inconsistant with the Bible.

Here are some more examples of where the "commandments of God/Torah, are repeated in the NT:

1Cor.7
[19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

1Cor.14
[37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1Thes.4
[2] For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

1John.2
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1John.3
[22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
[24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1John.5
[2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.[3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2John.1
[6] And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

>Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments,</</b>u> that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(Answer thes last questions first)

After reading these texts, Trevor, do you dare say and teach that we do not have to 'KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD/YHWH????

And are believers ONLY obligated to keep the "Law of Christ?
If your view is correct, then who inspired the keeping of the "commandments of God/YHWH", as the lifestyle of the SAINTS, after the "cross" at the end of Revelation to be put in the Bible?

Either the Bible is wrong or you are wrong....

Also. was your Messiah on Sinai when the commandments were given?

Are He and His father in agreement or disagreement on those commandments?

Then if He were there, then those commandments given from Sinai, are also the commandments of the Messiah.....

HE said he kept them didn't he???

Answer these last questions first.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Jer.16
[19] O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

I just want you to see the word of Yehwah, brother. Trevor, you have said many times that Gentiles do not have to adhere to the Torah, and now you are switching that up? You are saying that Torah is abolished? Yehwah, Prophets, Yeshuah, Apostles, seems to disagree. If Torah is part of the new covenant as a decree(Jeremiah 31), then why do you continue to say that it is abolished?

The 7 laws of Noah are indeed found in the rabbinic writings, but no honest Jew accepts them.. Why? Because Torah clearly states that you should not add or take away from the words Yehwah gave to His people at sinai. Not only that, Rabbis of the oral writings believe that Hebrews are to follow Torah, and Gentiles are to follow the Noachide laws. There's no such law in the Torah stating that. This is what the WRITTEN Torah says in Exodus 12,"There shall be one Torah for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." Do you see any division in that verse? Hebrews & Gentiles accepting Yehwah's covenant are one under Yehwah.

The only scripture that speaks of "law of Christ", is found in Galatians, but you must quote the words before it. Galatians 6:2,"Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." Bearing each other's burdens is the law of Christ. Please provide scriptural evidence showing that the law of Christ is the abolishment of Torah?? Not only that, show evidence where Yehwah's new covenant people shall be divided on Torah???

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

#3 and final question to you James , In this Prophesied Messianic Age is the Torah subject to change, Yes or No and then explain to me why or why not

[James Pierce]

Evan,

There's no evidence of the Torah being subject to change. Provide your evidence for me to either agree or disagree??

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

Is it subject to change answer yes or no and explain, I have a reason for asking these three questions of James, and I'm almost sure he understands where I'm going, and why I went this way. You both have something to come to terms with.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Evangelist, these false Jews cannot answer that for you. However I can, and I can answer all of your questions right here and now:

This is a case of "Law of CHRIST vs. Law of Moses". Its quite similar, but there are significant differences:

-Law of Moses says "Love thy neighbor as you love yourself", which sounds good but is flawed; Law of CHRIST says "love one another as I have loved you". You have not found such a commandment in the Torah. This commandment is far better, because the truth is people often do not even know how to love themselves correctly!

-Law of Moses says physical circumcision is still in play; Law of CHRIST says in Romans 2 that circumcision of the heart is now only required. This goes with righteousness that was even before Abraham, such as Noah, and Enoch.

-Law of Moses says "Honor the Sabbath and keep it holy", and says to keep certain feasts; Law of CHRIST says in Romans 14 "He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it", meaning it is between him and GOD. This goes with the righteousness found in Genesis, the times before the Law of Moses.

-Law of Moses says that we are to only eat certain foods that are considered "clean"; Law of CHRIST says in Matthew 15 "Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: these are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.", and in Romans 14 "I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died", and in Galatians

-Law of Moses says that males may only be priests of the LORD; Law of CHRIST says "there is neither bon nor free, Jew nor Greek, male nor female, for all are one in CHRIST."

-The great curse says that women are dominated by men, and the husband dominates the wife; the Law of CHRIST says "there is neither....male nor female for all are one in CHRIST", and "Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife."

-Law of Moses says all these laws are punishable by death, with little to no chance for repentance; Law of CHRIST says these are punishable by excommunication, with plenty of opportunity to repent.

These are just a few of the examples of the differences between the Law of Moses and the Law of CHRIST. You would claim that they are the same, but they are not as CLEARLY seen. In your limited thinking, you only look for phrases like "Law of CHRIST", instead of actually LOOKING for it!

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

You accuse us of being false, but yet you cannot stick with, and open your mind to the fact that if Yehwah is raising 8 children, then ALL 8 will keep His Torah. Yehwah will never have 4 keeping Torah, and the other 4 worshipping Ba'al. In HIS new covenant, all are under one Torah(Ex 12:49). You are still running away as usual, to the NT, thinking that it defends you, but brother, you have no where to run. So, lets get through Jeremiah & Hebrews 8.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Last I checked, the NT is where you find the new covenant FULLY stated, so why not "run" there? If I want to speak to Chinese, do I go and learn Italian or Spanish? If I want the New covenant, do I spend all day long in the OT or in the words of JESUS and the Apostles?

And yes, you all are false Jews.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

That is beside the point. Do you agree with Yehwah that there is one Torah for both the Hebrew & Gentile in the new covenant(Exodus 12:49, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Eph 2:12)?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

No, thats NOT besides the point, thats actually IS THE POINT! You have a problem with me running to the source for the info?? Now, no more questions until you can fully read and respond to what I posted concerning the Law of CHRIST.

The Torah is not for the new covenant. Don't ask me that again please, because I have a no reserved for you already, and you know it.