New Covenant Debate.............

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

There has arisen an issue concerning the details of the New Covenant that our LORD and Savior YESHUA/JESUS has won for us by HIS blood and grace. Therefore, we are opening this discussion and starting it off for the edifying of the saints and the settling of the matter:

The subjects for this debate are along two lines:

-Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8: Do we still stand on the Torah?
-the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2662031810327980639

Watch the video.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

AFTER you've watched the video.. I would like for you to read this...

http://www.m7000.com/Avi/Galatians.htm#Slide2

[James Pierce]

Mcnamee,

Sabbaths, feast days, and the circumcision has nothing to do with "seals." The bible never labels the Torah a seal. The Torah is decreed in the new covenant by Yehwah our father in Jeremiah 31:31-34. Hebrews were not the only ones that were circumcised. Them that attached themselves to Israel were to keep Torah exact(Ex 12:49). Being circumcised to "become Jewish" is not in the Torah, rather man made. Do not mix man made tradition with what the bible actually says and means.

When ones comes to faith in Yashah, Torah does not get thrown away. Hebrews 8 shows us that Yashah is the High Priest of the new covenant. This new covenant includes Torah, and its decreed by the father! You know this! Paul said in Romans 3:31 that our faith does not throw away the Torah, rather, it upholds the Torah.

Paul said in 1 cor 7:19 that keeping Yehwah's commandments are what counts. They count in the eyes of Yehwah, and they should count in the eyes of them who follow Yashah. Circumcision is a commandment, and must be carried out by families who bare males. They must be circumcised on the 8th day.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Then you twist his words because he also said circumcision is nothing numerous times!

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

As I proved to you earlier, Paul was referring to the circumcision party, and not the actual act of circumcision. My question is this... If keeping Torah is what really counts, as Paul said in 1 corin 7:19, and literal circumcision is a commandment of Torah, then why would Paul say that literal circumcision is nothing?

[Anna]

If you want to consider Paul's teaching on "circumcision" you also have to include this one:


'Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? ***Great in every respect. ***First of all, that they were entrusted with the Word of God. Rom. 3:1

You see Treavor, the word of God/YHWH was not entrustd to the Gentiles. That is why you all have it so discombobulated. You don't understand the text from the Hebraic perspective from which it was written.
There are sayings, idioms that you don't have a clue about, and continue to misinterpret it because you refuse to consult those to whom the word of YHWH was entrusted.

Your Hellenized, replacement theology will keep you in the dark, blinded to the light of YHWH's commandments:

Prov. 6:23
For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

Without His Law/Torah you will continue to walk in darkness....

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

The answer is Torah is NOT what counts, because Torah is apart of the old covenant, which has passed away!

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

You are being such a hard head. Paul said Torah is what counts! You claim to follow Paul, and yet disagree with him.

[Anna]

Trevor, the problem is that you still don't understand the basis of the Covenants.

If you can, tell us what are the terms of the "Everlasting Covenant"?

The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws (H8451), changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Is. 24:5

Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Heb. 13:20.

Can't you see that the EVERLASTING COVENANT, is just what it said....
It lasts forever?

The Torah (H8451) is the body of laws upon which EVERLASTING COVENANT is based upon.

The First Covenant, and the New Covenant, with the Torah wirtten in the heart of the believers?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

I follow what Apostle Paul taught. Just because Paul said follow GOD's commandments, doesn't mean HE said follow the Law of Moses. There is a difference! You all of GOD's commandments are simply in Torah? Is that it?

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

You follow only what Paul taught? Was Paul considered the "Pillars of the church?" Read Galatians 2, and you will see that Peter & James were considered the pillars of the Church. Did you know that your Christianity did not consider James & Peter's letters canonical? Why? because they were "too Jewish" to be accepted into a "Gentile Church." The presence of Torah is all through their letters. You follow what Paul taught... thinking that Paul did not teach Torah. That is a lie, for he was the one that says "we uphold the Torah", Romans 3:31.

There is no difference between the Torah of Moses & the Torah of Yehwah. Moses was simply the instrument that Yehwah used to "write" down HIS words. Yehwah would tell Moses,"Speak to the sons of Israel." I challenge you to PROVE to me the differences between the Torah of Moses & the Torah of Yehwah. I shall be waiting. When Paul said keeping the commandments are what counts.. well, what OTHER commandments was he referring to if it was not the Torah???????????

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Well, if that be the case, then this verse is not true:

Galatians 5

1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.



I would LOVE to see how you would contradict such a thing! If Paul backed up circumcision, then why is it that he CLEARLY spoke against it? Is Apostle Paul a double minded man? Was this heresy? By your own standards, Apostle Paul is a heretic! What saith thou?

Now, as for Apostles James, and Peter: I do not support Paul only. I only quote Paul more because 1) he simply wrote more epistles, and 2) he speaks on these issues more than any other Apostle. Each man knows their assignment. You're accusing of false hood now, desperately reaching for what is not there. I adhere to their writings totally. So what if some old Bishops and Priests rejected their writings!?! Does that make it right? I support the Book of Enoch, the Acts of Paul, the Apocalypse of Peter, the Didache of the Apostles, and the like. James, you are getting desperate with your argument, because by your standard I can say you are like the Pharisees and Sadducee: you reject Messiah as being GOD, you reject Apostle Paul's teachings, you cling to circumcisions and feasts, and the list can easily go on!

Oh and by the way, the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Churches highly regard Peter as one of the pillars of the Church, along with James and John (Galatians 2). It was them that sent Paul and Barnabas to the Gentiles while Peter preached to the Jews, and James was head of Jerusalem. Apostle Paul's writings were supported by a man considered as one of "the pillars of the Church". Lets see what he said about Apostle Paul:

2 Peter 3

1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior: (CLEARLY NOTED: THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE APOSTLES, NOT THE COMMANDMENTS OF MOSES)

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

He was the Apostle to the Gentiles, not Peter or James! If Apostle Peter sponsors Paul, then I am all for him!