There has arisen an issue concerning the details of the New Covenant that our LORD and Savior YESHUA/JESUS has won for us by HIS blood and grace. Therefore, we are opening this discussion and starting it off for the edifying of the saints and the settling of the matter:

The subjects for this debate are along two lines:

-Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8: Do we still stand on the Torah?
-the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?

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Trevor,

You previously stated that you were ready to study and keep Torah. I only ask if you would re-consider doing that again. Be blessed man!
Back that up young man.....I said what? Don't twist my words, how about quoting me.........
Trevor,

You said: I said I wanted to do all the things that was required in Torah.

I hope you re-consider your words, brother.
I'm listening to exactly what Moses and GOD the Father said:

"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; according to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." - Deuteronomy 18:15-19

"And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. " - Matthew 17:3-8

I follow what the Apostles say/teach because they followed what the LORD said/taught. You have a problem with me saying that the Apostle Paul and the rest of the Apostles taught/said this:

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offense of the cross ceased. I would they were even cut off which trouble you. For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another." - Galatians chapter 5

Am I wrong for accepting this? I can easily go with other Epistle quotes as well.....
Trevor,

If you follow what the Apostles taught, then you will be living Torah. I am not sure on why you posted Deut 18, but that's not a prophecy about Messiah. Moses was about to die, and there would be a prophet like him that shall rise up to lead the people. Who was that person after Moses? His name was Joshua!. Can you go back to the deity page and answer some of my questions.
Trevor,

You hear not Moses, so how will you believe Yeshua?
You wouldn't recognize Christ if He came up to you right now!
Trevor,

WOW! Talk about the speech of hypocrisy. Pharisees preached Torah, but never kept it. You guys preach God's love, but never obey Him(Keep His Torah).. Bunch of hypocrites!
This is an interesting debate, but there can be "no winers", because the participants are arguing from un-agreed upon premises and ill (or even undefined) terms. So, even after 42 pages of exchanges, there is still no agreement to even disagree!

The basic issues must first be defined and agreed upon. For example, Torah means "instruction" (not law) on how to live a life acceptable (pleasing) to God. The Law and grace have both been with us since the Garden, and without the "Law" there can be no grace, for without the Law, sin is not identified nor imputed to man. Of course, if man is not held accountable for his sin (the transgression the Law) then there is no need for a Messiah and everything falls apart! Grace is a meaningless gesture without the Books of Instruction (Law) and their attendant ordinances and statutes (which brings the curse of the Law). So, the first thing would be to define one's terms and establish the relationship between the associated concepts.

There is nothing discussed in the New Covenant that was not first covered (revealed) in one or more of the Old Covenants.

Everyone has has some remarkably wonderful and astute things to say - along with some very "questionable" comments and judgments. But, then again, debates were never intended to persuade its participants to change their minds or positions, only to see who can be "right", i.e. justified in their own eyes.

Another approach would be to clearly state what one believes and why. If another presents their beliefs and presents the reasons why they hold to them, and you find a fault, point out that fault and explain why it is a fault according to your understanding, and allow the other to teach you concerning their reasoning. You are then free to change your thinking or to remain apart on the issue - and move on to something more productive. If we can focus on what we agree on, then we can work a little at a time on those areas in which we disagree - and perhaps discover that the disagreements are not that important after all. Over major conflicts of doctrine, if they cannot be resolved, then it would be best to simply agree to disagree, and move on in your/our respective (separate) ways.

You said, I said, and the following I'm right and you're wrong exchanges, only encourages the other(s) to become more intransigent in their positions, and corrections in doctrines (or theologies) are not encouraged to take place.

So the final questions are: We know what the initial questions are, but what is the fundamental purpose of this exchange, and what would it take to achieve it? Second, is the pursuit of the issue(s) worth the time and effort, considering the expected results of the discussion/debate at this point? Third, is this thread even salvageable?
You forgot to put the animal sacrifice in the Old Covenant, or Torah if that is what you want to call it.

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