New Covenant Debate.............

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

There has arisen an issue concerning the details of the New Covenant that our LORD and Savior YESHUA/JESUS has won for us by HIS blood and grace. Therefore, we are opening this discussion and starting it off for the edifying of the saints and the settling of the matter:

The subjects for this debate are along two lines:

-Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8: Do we still stand on the Torah?
-the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Anna, there was always an order, but a total lack of respect shown in not just this discussion, but the others as well. The disrespect came not from a rude attitude, but an unwillingness to simply answer questions when asked; questions that threaten one's argument.

Instead of answering the questions that I have presented time after time, I have been presented with yet ANOTHER QUESTION. Fine then, this is the last time I answer a question without receiving my answer....THE LAST. Hebrews 8:8-12 is the exact duplicate of Jeremiah 31:31. If a Christian (one who follows the LORD JESUS) is to understand OT scriptures, it MUST be from the light of NT scripture revelation. If you only had verses 8-12, then your point would be valid. However, you cannot avoid the surrounding verses 6,7, and 13. The Apostle CLEARLY says that the first covenant was "decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away". You cannot live the new covenant from O.T. only. You have to use the NT epistles as well, something that not only I demanded, but the very faith in the Messiah demands.

I have answered ALL questions by presenting scripture. I REFUSE to go on back and forth for another few days without getting an answer FOR ONCE! Stop asking me questions unless you are prepared to finally answer mine, because whether you like my answers or not, I at least give answers.

[Anna]

Excellent question, Trevor!
I'm glad you brought this up.
I will repeat what you said, and ask question ONLY from the text that you wanted us to focus on, Ok?

You said the following:

" The Apostle CLEARLY says that the first covenant was "decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away"."

Now let's carefully EXAMINE what was said in Hebrews 8:13-

Heb.8
[13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

What you do not realize is that by this verse you have "shot yourself in the foot"!!!

Not the passing away of the "first" is NOT a completed action. "Ready to" indicates a "preparation for" . You getting "Ready to" go to work, does not mean you are at work.
Getting "ready to" get married" does not mean you are married!

So this verse does not prove that the "Old" (covenant) at the time Hebrews was written was already passed away! So please find another scripture if you can to prove your point...

Note that the writer (some do not believe that it was Paul) states at the time of the writing of Hebrews, that the "old is ready to vanish away". Now if you remember some basic English, the "old" has not YET PASSED AWAY. Being "ready do" does not denote an accomplished fact.

So at the end of the first century, the "old" as NOT PASSED AWAY! Do you see how you have backed yourself into a corner?

If this is speaking of the "First" (old) covenant, it has not passed away by the end of the 1st century.

If you think it had, give us the year, month and date that the House of Israel and the House of Judah AGREED to a New Covenant with YHWH.

Otherwise you have to agree that the HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND THE HOUSE OF JUDAH, nave NEVER ENTERED INTO A NEW COVENANT WITH YHWH.

IF you believe that the HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND HOUSE OF JUDAH entered into the NEW COVENANT with YHWH and our Messiah, they would still be in covenant with then TODAY, but they are not.

So you have two choices:

1) If Hebrews 8:13, the verse YOU presented is correct, you must give us the year and date that the First Covenant passed away, since it had not passed away at the time of the writing of Hebrews 8:13, which was at the end of the first century.

Historically there is no time between the 1st century and the 21 century that the HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND THE HOUSE OF JUDAH entered a covenant with YHWH. Otherwise they today as a nation would belive in the Messiah, but they still continue to reject Him.

2) If you don't believe that Heb. 8:13 is correct, give us your alternate translation that proves your point, but you must in either event, give us the year and date that the HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND THE HOUSE OF JUDAH accepted a NEW COVENANT.

We as Gentiles will be "Grafted in" to the HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND THE HOUSE OF JUDAH, just like aliens become naturalized citizens of the USA.

So back to you Trevor, give me the date that the New Covenant agreement was accepted by Israel, either before the book of Hebrews was written or after.

Please note the term "new" was added to the word "covenant" when our Messiah took the "Last Supper". It was not in the original text.

Our Messiah shed the blood of the "EVERLASTING COVENANT!".

Hebrews 13: [20]
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT ,

You will NEVER find a verse that says He shed the blood of the "New Covenant". The "New Covenant" and the "First Covenant" are based upon the SAME LAWS the TORAH, but in the "New" it is written on the Heart and Mind. That why His blood was shed for the EVERLASTING COVENANT, not the New Covenant.

Also, not that in Revelation 11:19 the ARK that is preserved in Heaven is NOT the ark of the New Covenant. Why is the Ark of the "Old" Covenant in Heaven? Evidently YHWH has not discarded it as you antinomians have. Too bad when Yahshua returns the "covenant" you are supposedly keeping does not match the covenant YHWH autorized and expects you to keep....

So in case you can't find the year and date that the New Covenant was begun with the House of Israel and House of Judah, I tell you a secret, YHWH and Yahshua have not yet made a New Covenant with Israel. This "New" Renewed/covenant will be accepted by Israel in the future, after the Gentiles are fully brought in.

Then national Israel will repent and accept their Messiah...

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Anna:

That was the WORST set of interpretation of scripture I had seen in a while! Now you are saying that the new covenant isn't installed yet!!!

W-O-W!!

The House of Judah agreed to the new covenant already because it was the Lion of Judah that signed and sealed it! The King of Judah, the King of Israel Himself installed this covenant. The people need not vote on this deal. This is not a democracy. This is a Monarchy/Theocracy. You don't bring this deal to the Senate and they vote on it!

GOD made a covenant with Israel by talking to Moses. The covenant was NOT up for vote or discussion by the people. They heard and obeyed/disobeyed it, PERIOD. Sheep don't get to vote on where their shepherd decides to lead them. This is not a matter of YHWH and JESUS making a covenant with the people of Israel, this is YHWH making a covenant with Israel, with His Son as King of Israel. He needs not talk to the people, just talk to the leader of the people. He isn't even called "son of Jacob" either, He's called "Son of Man", meaning "Son of Adam". As King of all people, and a man Himself, He stood and signed the deal for the new covenant. It was signed by His blood on the cross. His blood was then placed on GOD's mercy seat in Heaven itself. The seal of the covenant on earth was then the giving of the HOLY SPIRIT on the 50th day, the day of Pentecost.

You teach a heresy by teaching "3 different covenants." You can't even keep a story straight because NO ONE will back you on that, neither a true Minister tday, nor an Apostle of the days of Acts.

[Anna]

Treavor:
Sometimes I wonder if you and I are reading the same Bible!

You wrongfully alledged

:"GOD made a covenant with Israel by talking to Moses. The covenant was NOT up for vote or discussion by the people"

Your statement contradicted by what the BIble in Ex. 19, PLAINLY STATES, that YHWH spoke to Moses, the Moses spoke to the leaders of Israel, who AGREED TO ENTER THE COVENANT with YHWH:

Exod.19
[1] In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
[2] For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
[3] And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, *Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;*
[4] Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

[5] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

[6] And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
[7] And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.

[8] And
*all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do*.

And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
~~~~~~~~~~

Treavor, the inspried scriptures confict your statement as being wrong. Can you admit you are wrong, regarding Moses making the covenant with God, without discussing it with Israel??? or do you claim that what the BIble is saying in Ex. 19:1 - 8 is wrong?

The NEW COVENANT will be ratified the same way with THE HOUSES OF ISRAEL AND JUDAH BOTH AGREEING TO THE NEW COVENANT, as Jeremiah 31:and Heb 8 says they will.

Trevor, you are bearing false witness against me.
I did not say that there were three covenants.

I said that the Blood of Messiah was shed for the EVERLASTING COVENANT.

CAN YOU AGREE??? The Everlasting covemant began withthe FIRST COVENANT:

1Chr.16
[17] And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

Pss.105
[10] And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

Isa.24
[5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Ezek.16
[60] Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

Ezek.37
[26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

[Anna]

Trevor:
Then are you saying that Heb. 8:13, which plainly says of the "Old" that it is "ready to pass away" means that it is actually passed away?

Let's study this term "ready" (as in "ready to pass away") from the Greek.

Strong's G1451 - eggys
Translated as:
AV — *nigh 13, at hand 6, nigh at hand 4, near 4, from 1, nigh unto 1, ready 1*

You see Treavor, you do violence to this text by trying to force it to agree with you.

The word "Ready (to)" does not imply a "completed act" but one that is yet pending, yet incomplete!

If the writer of Hebrews wanted to imply a completed act, he would have said something to this effect, "having" or "has" passed away, indicating "past tense." a completed act. But as the Greek texts plainly shows you this is not the case....

My suggestion to you Treavor, it that you open up some linguistic study aids or I can send you the links to some sites that will help you understand the Bible and these texts as they were given rather than your trying to twist them to agree with your manmade doctrines and traditions.

Once again, Heb. 8:13 tells us that the "OLD" is *ready to pass away*, not that it has passed away.

Hebrews being written in the last part of the second century definately does not support the teaching that the Old Covenant ended at the cross.

Here at the end of the Book of Hebrews it had NOT YET PASSED AWAY.

Obviously Israel (who was in the diaspora) and Judah (who crucified the Messiah the very next day after you claim they accepted the New Covenant)
has NEVER accepted the NEW COVENANT, the only parties with whom YHWH is making the New Covenant

Heb. 8: 8b & 9 ............ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the *House of Israel* and with the *House of Judah:
[9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Who were the Apostles? You speak as if they are African American? Or are they themselves Hebrews from the tribes of Israel? The writing of the word of GOD on man's hearts and seal of the new covenant, which is the very salvation of man, ha come already. All things are not perfected yet, but the new covenant is in place already. when you say "it is ready to pass away", and say it hasn't happened as of yet, you are thinking 20th century talk. How about thinking Greek on this one: the language does not imply that it is going to pass, but it is even now taking the place of the old covenant.

GOD Himself said that His spirit would not dwell with man. That was based on the time of the old covenant. The blood of JESUS washes clean all. If we are still yet too impure for GOD to dwell within us, then why has He sent the HOLY SPIRIT to dwell within us? You speak of a some day soon sense just like a Jew without their Messiah when the Jews often say the famous sayings "this time next year in Jerusalem" or "When Messiah comes". I speak however, as a man who has met with Messiah and has been washed clean already. I am sealed within the new covenant with GOD the FATHER and the LORD JESUS according to Isaiah 59:21, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30. You being one that regards the Jewish ways far more than the ways of GOD are spoken of within 2 Corinthians 3:

1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to you or from you?

2You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;

3being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

4Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.

5Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,

6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

8how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

9For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

10For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.

11For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

12Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,

13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.

14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

To live still within the old covenant is to live still with the veil over your eyes, Anna. One thing that I have noticed that I have mentioned more times than I can honestly remember is that none of you ever care to go deeper within the Epistles of the Apostles. Why is that? Using a Strong's concordance is not going deeper, its just barely scratching the surface. I said this before, and I'll say it again: "You can go get a Strongs Concordance, I can get my Interlinear Bible, we can start speak Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic fluently, you can go dig up your own set of Dead sea Scrolls, you can even run to Rome and resurrect Paul and Peter for an interview for all I care, but it will not support your doctrine because your doctrine is true ONLY when speaking of the Mosaic covenant, not the new covenant & law of Christ!!"

There is little to no Epistle evidence of what you are saying to be true. The words of the Apostles hold authority here because they are the direct teachings from the mouth of the LORD JESUS Himself to them. I do not disregard the Prophets of the OT at all, but I do recognize GOD's Apostolic order, and Apostolic order recognizes the epistles of the Apostles.

[Anna]

Treavor:
Please give us the year/date that the New Covenant ws put into effect? Ane with whom it was put into effect?

Also provide your supporting texts, which you have not so far.

[James Pierce]

Anna,

LOL Trevor will not be able to answer such questions. He's already beating around the mayberry bush! Before, he used to debate me about thinking "Hebrew", now he ask's you to think "Greek." Why think in a language that the Apostles never grew up in? Oh Trevor, how ignorant!

[Anna]

The text of Hebrews 13:8, as I said before "shoots your theology in the foot"! Heb. 8:13, which YOU wanted to discuss NEVER NOT IN ANY TRANSLATION, says (that the subject of which we are discussing, if you wish it to be) the "old Covenant" is already passed away!

Here are several other translations of Heb. 8:13, NONE of them agree with you that the "old" is passed away. and that the new is aleady established...

All agree with me that what is "old" is not yet, but nigh, ready to to passing away, IN TRANSITION, but not yet ended. That is because Paul to was looking to the imminent return of Messiah, which He knew would bring about the installation New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah:

New International Version (©1984)
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

International Standard Version (©2008)
In speaking of a "new" covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God made this new promise and showed that the first promise was outdated. What is outdated and aging will soon disappear.

King James Bible
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

American King James Version
In that he said, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.

American Standard Version
In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

Bible in Basic English
When he says, A new agreement, he has made the first agreement old. But anything which is getting old and past use will not be seen much longer.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old, is near its end.
Darby Bible Translation
In that he says New, he has made the first old; but that which grows old and aged is near disappearing.

English Revised Version
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

Webster's Bible Translation
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and groweth old is ready to vanish away.

Weymouth New Testament
By using the words, "a new Covenant," He has made the first one obsolete; but whatever is decaying and showing signs of old age is not far from disappearing altogether.

World English Bible
In that he says, "A new covenant," he has made the first old. But that which is becoming old and grows aged is near to vanishing away.

Young's Literal Translation
in the saying 'new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.
~~~~~~~~~~

You are committing the fallicy of all false teachers, you interject into the scriptures what you want it to say, ignoring the plain, irefutable Biblical text so that you don't have to repent of and correct your errors, and come to the knowledge of the truths YHWH is communicating to us.

[Anna]

Replacement Theology

Trevor:
You are deep into Replacement Theology. You have usurped the covenants that YHWH designed for the House of Israel and the House of Judah. There is no entry into the covenants except through those who are written into the terminology of the covenants.
~~~~~~~~~~

What Is Replacement Theology?

Replacement Theology was introduced to the Church shortly after Gentile leadership took over from Jewish leadership. What are its premises?

Israel (the Jewish people and the land) has been replaced by the Christian Church in the purposes of God, or, more precisely, the Church is the historic continuation of Israel to the exclusion of the former.

The Jewish people are now no longer a "chosen people." In fact, they are no different from any other group, such as the English, Spanish, or Africans.


Apart from repentance, the new birth, and incorporation into the Church, the Jewish people have no future, no hope, and no calling in the plan of God. The same is true for every other nation and group.


Since Pentecost of Acts 2, the term "Israel," as found in the Bible, now refers to the Church.


The promises, covenants and blessings ascribed to Israel in the Bible have been taken away from the Jews and given to the Church, which has superseded them. However, the Jews are subject to the curses found in the Bible, as a result of their rejection of Christ.
~~~~~~~~~~
Ephesians 2, explains what I have been trying to tell you:

[11] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

[12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

[14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

[17] And came and *preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh)*.
[18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

[19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

All Gentiles are to be "fellow citizens" with Israel, with whom the covenants are made.

The New Covenant is not made with gentiles who are outside of the covenantal parties designated in Jer. 31 & Heb. 8. The covenant has not been agreed to by the House of Israel or the House of Judah, at this time. that is yet future, when their sins (including their rejetion of their messiah) will be forgiven, that has not occured, or do you think it has.

In cae you haven't read, Israel is STILL BLIND, they have not entered the NewCovenant:

Paul states: "For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in" (Rom. 11:25).

[James Pierce]

Anna,

You are so right. The Christian Church is plaqued with the DNA of replacement theology. The truth is that Yehwah has never forgotten His people. They are still on His mind, and He is still working with them. The time will come when they will agree to the new covenant; under the administrtation of Yeshuah!

The truth is, as Trevor will realize in the future, is that Yehwah said He will make a new covenant with Israel & Judah. Gentiles are only grafted into this covenant. We shall worship Yehwah and obey Torah just like the native ones whom Yehwah will make the covenant with.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

I would appreciate if you quote me in the correct context. The reason why I said I won't address the scripture of Ephesians that you gave me is because I knew exactly what you were doing. That scripture dealt with salvation, and not Torah. It didn't even mention the word covenant there. That is why I said I am not a legalist. I do not believe Torah saves. You refuse to hang with me in the Torah & The Prophets.

Shouldn't we be like the bereans... checking the Torah & Prophets to see if whether or not the Apostles were faithful to it? Shouldn't we even check the words of Yeshuah to see if He was faithful to Torah & Prophets as well? Now, you may be scared to do THAT one.. challenge Yeshuah's words, but the reality is, if its not according to the teachings of Yehwah, then it should be rejected. Yeshuah and the Apostles would agree with this, but its sad that you won't agree.

You can't hang with me and walk all the way through in Torah & Prophets. You are so quick to skip Torah & Prophets, and Yeshuah, and run to your Apostles... thinking they will save the day. Yeshuah said man does not live off of bread alone, but off of every word that comes from the mouth of Elohim. Do you know what He was quoting? TORAH! He was quoting Dueteronomy 8:3. Basically, we are to live Torah! The new covenant makes this very plain,"Torah shall be written on our hearts."

This new covenant was not made with Gentiles initially, rather, it was made with Hebrews. This new covenant includes Torah. Gentiles are GRAFTED IN to this new covenant, and are to adhere to the Torah as the native people. You stated that we are going to return back to Adam & Eve's time. There's not one scripture that speaks of that. Yehwah made it plain through the mouths of the prophets that Torah will be the government of the new heavens and earth.

The only thing we need not worry about, because Yeshuah became it for us, is the curse of the Torah. Remember in revelation where it said that the curse will be lifted? There will only exist the blessings for keeping Torah. There will not be any temples, and so we will not do anything of Torah that requires temple duties(i.e animal sacrifices). Why? Because Yehwah said no one will destroy on His holy mountain. Whether you accept it or not, Trevor, Torah will reign, and Yeshuah will rule us by it.

Trevor, the reason why I am no longer debating you is not because I cannot answer any of your questions. I could defend anything you throw at me. Its just that I find you simply going around in circles, trying to run away from the actual truth that you are indeed commanded to keep Torah. We told you a million times that we are not legalists, and that Torah does not save. We also told you that we cannot do animal sacrifices because there's no temple, and yet you insist on challenging us in areas we cannot do. Thats ignorance at its best! I pray that Yehwah open your eyes to obedience of Torah, and not obedience of your 2nd century church fathers!

In fact, let me show you what Torah says about Kings of Israel... Duet 17,"And when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this torah, approved by the Levitical priests. And it shall be with him, and he shall read in it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear Yehwah his God by keeping all the words of this law and these statutes, and doing them." Praise Yehwah that His servants will serve Him through obedience and love of Torah for eternity!