New Covenant Debate.............

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

There has arisen an issue concerning the details of the New Covenant that our LORD and Savior YESHUA/JESUS has won for us by HIS blood and grace. Therefore, we are opening this discussion and starting it off for the edifying of the saints and the settling of the matter:

The subjects for this debate are along two lines:

-Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8: Do we still stand on the Torah?
-the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

What was the other question I asked for this whole discussion? Why did I ask that question concerning Ephesians? Why not tell them the whole truth? As bland as you have been, I have not come at the "salvation" subject ONCE in the whole blog, did I? NO! I came CLEARLY at 1) your faulty claims that Torah will still govern our lives just like it did before, and 2) you said out of your own mouth that circumcision and Sabbaths are still in place. These are seals for the old covenant, so I CLEARLY asked "do we have a new seal for this new covenant"? When did I ever mention salvation to you?

As for me quoting the Apostles, whats the difference between me quoting the Apostles and you quoting the Prophets? Last I checked, BOTH QUOTED GOD and wrote as the HOLY SPIRIT guided them. I thought that was something we both agree upon.......that is unless you feel that the Apostles were in error somewhere. If you say that they are GOD-inspired writers and the Epistles of the Apostles are flawless, then there should never be a problem quoting GOD's Word, be it O.T. or N.T.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Praise Yehwah that Yeshuah, the future king of Israel, will govern His people by Torah. In fact, let me show you what Torah says about Kings of Israel... Duet 17,"And when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this torah, approved by the Levitical priests. And it shall be with him, and he shall read in it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear Yehwah his God by keeping all the words of this law and these statutes, and doing them." Praise Yehwah that His servants will serve Him through obedience and love of Torah for eternity!

The correct thing to do is to validate the Apostles teaching by the words of Torah, the Prophets, and Yeshuah. It is not the other way around.

[Anna]

Further Exploring the "New Covenant"

Trevor:
Many antinomians such as yourself, somehow ignore the "LAWS/TORAH' that is to be written in the heart and mind, but you also "ignore" the rest of the verses that describe what the people on the earth will be like when the "New Covenant" is in force.

Heb. 13:
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

8 But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israeland with the house of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.

10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israelafter that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

11 *****No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me*****,
from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c]

13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
~~~~~~~~
The text above was copied from the NIV.

Note in verse 11 the conditions that will exist reegarding the KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD/YHWH, are:

**No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me**

(Jer. 31:34 states:
No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." )

~~~~~~~~~
Now Treavor, when the NEW COVENANT is in effect, you won't HAVE TO TEACH YOUR NEIGHBOR ABOUT the LORD/ YHWH!The INSPIRED WORD SAYS "ALL WILL KNOW ME (YHWH)."!!!

Now if we are truly in the New Covenant, you either have to say the text is wrong, that YHWH was wrong, or admit that you are wrong about the New Covenant being in place now...... which will it be???

This text proves beyond a shadow of doubt that you have embraced a false teaching and are falsely teaching about the New Covenant in the following areas, you teachings are erroneous regarding:

1) Who the New Covenant is made with - With Israel not Gentiles, except those "grafted into Israel or Judah"
2) What is written in the heart of those in the New Covenant - It is the TORAH that is written in the hearts and minds.
3) What the spiritual condition of the earth will be when the New Covenant is in effect - there will be no need to teach or preach the Gospel, since ALL WILL KNOW YHWH.

Trevor:

I don't know how much plainer I can make it.
I just wish that you and so many others, would repent of your false teachings, your replacement theology, and read the Bible and believe what it says without interjecting the commandments and doctrines of men.

Be a Berean, Trevor, search the scriptures, (the scriptures at the time this text was written was the Bible from Gen. to Malachi). Our Saviour put his stamp of approval on the book of Jeremiah. Why can't you???

These scriptures are given for doctrine, correction and instruction. I suggest you use them as YHWH directed and you will be able to "order yours steps" according to HIS word, not according to some denomination, or misguided fales teacher.

[James Pierce]

Anna,

Amen. Trevor probably did not see this verse from YESHUAH...Luke 11:28,"Blessed rather are those who hear the word of Elohim and obey it." When Yeshuah said this, which word did they have? TORAH! HalleluYah!

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

The Bible does NOT say in verse 8 GOD found fault in the people at all. What translation did you use for Hebrews?!?! That was a FALSE one!

I just checked and you used the NIV translation! Thats about one of the WORST translations of the Bible as you can get! Are you aware of how many scholars bad mouth that translation for the amount of times that it eliminates essential words and adds words that were never meant to be there? Thats a low move Anna, because no other tranlsation says that GOD found fault with the people, they just say He "found fault with them", and judging from the context of the first few verses before it, HE found fault with the covenant and laws!

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

The KJV, NASB, and several other translations favors the sentence,"finding fault with them." I am in agreement with Anna. The Torah is perfect, holy, good, and righteous. There was no fault there, rather, the people were disobedient to Yehwah, and He found fault with them. They were unfaithful. No where in there did it says,"finding fault with the Torah."

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Anna & James:

Its funny that you have not spoken up until you found yourself a tag-team partner. Thats ok, it still doesn't change things. You still wont face the truth, and you still won't stand up and answer scriptures for yourself. James, the reason you gave for not answering to scripture is a poor one at best! If you feel that it was not correctly used, then correct it, but don't dodge it. Dodging it is the move of a person who could not answer due to a lack of understanding, or a person who just plain rebels against the words spoken by the Apostle. You said something foolish before, saying "You already avoided Yeshuah. I rather avoid the Epistles & The Apostles, and cling to Yeshuah Messiah, then to cling to the Epistles & Apostles, and avoid Yeshuah." That makes ABSOLUTELY no sense because the Apostles taught exactly what JESUS said. To dodge the Apostles is to literally dodge the teachings of JESUS. Its impossible! The apostle wrote the Gospels, so how can you even consider that? If I regard the Apostles teachings, I honor their Teacher. If you embrace the epistles like you later on said, then why won't you ever bring up any epistle references? Why won't you take your challenge to the NT also? One verse don't cut it. Both of you have quoted O.T. well, but without NT light shed on it, you are exactly as Apostles Paul said:

"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away." - 2nd Corinthians 3:14-16

It has become apparent that you two are trying to shed O.T. light on the N.T., but that is impossible. Any true JESUS-believing Bible teacher has taught this: "The O.T. is the N.T. concealed, while the N.T. is the O.T. revealed" You CANNOT shed OT light on the NT because it is the NT that is the revealing of your OT scriptures. If you want to understand the New covenant, how about hopping out of OT for just a second, and start reading the epistles of the very Apostles of the new covenant. The new covenant is found in OT at best as a shadow and a vague prophesy, spoken only by a handful of prophets throughout those thousands of years: Enoch, Moses, Nathan, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Joel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Zephaniah. You may think that this is alot, but there were hundreds more Prophets and Prophetesses back then. You would look at the prophecy of the Prophets of old, rather than the manifestation brought forth by JESUS and fully explained by the Apostles? PURE FOOLISHNESS!

According to the classical time-line, the Israelites arrived at the wilderness of Sinai on the new moon (Ex. 19:1) and the Ten Commandments were given on the following Sabbath (i.e., Saturday). According to the writer Luke, the new covenant was sealed on the same day by the giving of the HOLY SPIRIT, the very Illuminator of GOD's wisdom Himself. I need not having the writings as much as having the Living Writer on my heart. HE is the seal of our salvation, the new covenant. Anna, you wanted the exact day of the new covenant? Check Acts 2. The covenant is sealed within a believer when they receive the HOLY SPIRIT. It is He that saves, and seals the believer, not a writing on a piece of paper. Circumcisions, feasts, and baptisms were the seals of old. The HOLY SPIRIT does all three, for HE circumcises the heart and gives you the fruit and the words to say and live by (Romans 5:5; Galatians 5:22-26; Matthew 10:20), HE communes within you for you are the very temple (Ephesians 2:22), and you are baptized into HIM (John 20:22; Acts 1:5; Acts 19:1-6; Romans 6:1-8).

By the way, do any of you understand the origin of the terms Apostle, Epistle, or Church? Do you know the meanings? If you did, then you wouldn't be so quick to speak against Greek thought.

[Anna]

Trevor:
Please stick to the questions we have asked you, regarding the New testament, which is the subject of this blog.
No one is avoiding anything but you, because you have not been taught the truth, neither are you teaching the truth about Jer. 31 & Heb. 8.

To make it easy, answer these first few questions:

1) YHWH is making a New Covenant. Who does these text say the New Covenant is made with?

2) What type of laws is this covenant made with?

3) What is the spiritual condition of the world when the New Covenant is in force?


I will be glad to answer any of your other questions after we complete those specific to the New Covenant.

In case you didn't know, 2 Tim 3:16 which says:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

These "scriptures" of which the writer spoke was the "Old Testament" since the NT had not been compiled at that time.

The Bereans "searched/examined the scriptures daily"

Trevor, in case you didn't learn in school, the scriptures spoken of in Acts 17 that the Bereans searched also was the OT. The NT had not been compiled.

Acts 17:11 - Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Trevor, these Bereans are MORE NOBLE than many today, since they accepted the contents of YHWH's word from GEN - Malachi, as relavent for their life "AFTER THE CROSS".....

Another text of which you are apparenty unaware is:

2Tim.3
[15] And (Timothy) that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Trevor, guess what is being referred to as the "SCRIPTURES" that TIMOTHY learned from as a child???
Will you admit it? It was the OT.

Don't forget our Messiah's own words:

Matt.4
[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Where is the word of YHWH found that Messiah was referring to here? Yes, in the OT.

Trevor, I invite you to stop rejecting the word of God and start living by it, instead of by the commandments and doctrines of men.

To recap regarding the "OT" scriptures,

1) Our Messiah told us to live by them
2) The Bereans lived by the OT Scirptures, comparing Paul's teaching to what was found there.
3) Timothy lived by them, being taught from them as a child.

Anyone who rejects these scriptures, in which the actual words of YHWH are written are rejecting the plain teachings of YHWH Himself, Savior, the Prophets and the Apostles.

Please provide your test that states that the New Covenant started in Acts 2.
The HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND THE HOUSE OF JUDAH, were not in agreement with Yahshua that they wre entering a covenant, nor did the Disciples even use the words, "New Covenant" in Acts 2.

Treavor, do you know something about what happened in Acts 2, that these disciples didn't even know???

And provide any Biblical commentary to support your claim

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

I may have to step back into this discussion. I will do this under some terms. It has been much jumping around in this debate. One cannot begin to explain away the New Testament teachings apart from the light of Torah & Prophets. We will observe these questions, and many more questions not listed. We will observe thesae questions within Hebraic Context. We will establish from the OT:

What is the Torah?

What is sin?

What is the New Covenant?

What are the decrees of the New Covenant?

Are Gentiles already included in this New Covenant, or are they grafted in?

Will Torah be established in the New heavens & New earth?

Has Yehwah only allowed obedience of Torah to Hebrews, or did it also include Gentiles living among them?

Once we establish the doctrines of the Torah & the Prophets, then we will test the teachings of the New Testament to see if they fit the Tanakh. Trevor, this is the moment of truth. It is time to let it all out here. I know you are a senior pastor. Even you as a pastor must study and be open to new understandings of scripture. Do we have a deal to be honest Bereans in this debate?

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

James, are you going to present what the doctrines of the Torah say?

[James Pierce]

Evan,

Yes big sis.... Only what is relevant to the oncoming debate. You could join if you want to.

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

OK