New Covenant Debate.............

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

There has arisen an issue concerning the details of the New Covenant that our LORD and Savior YESHUA/JESUS has won for us by HIS blood and grace. Therefore, we are opening this discussion and starting it off for the edifying of the saints and the settling of the matter:

The subjects for this debate are along two lines:

-Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8: Do we still stand on the Torah?
-the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?

[Anna]

Here is a commentary on Heb 8, from "John Darby’s Synopsis" which confirms what I have been trying ot tell you.

".........The first covenant was made with Israel; the second must be so likewise, according to the prophecy of Jeremiah....... The new covenant will be established formally with Israel in the millennium."

Israel and Judah are the only names in the texts with whom YHWH makes a covenant.

Consider this Trevor, on your "Last Will and Testament" my daughter's name is not on it.
If you died, my daughter would not have any inheritance coming now would she.

However if she were to marry a son of yours who was of age, she would be "co-heir with him"
In like manner ONLY the Gentiles who are "Grafted into Israel or Judah" will be heirs to the New Covenant.

As Darby so correctly stated, Israel will enter the New Covenant in the Millinium.

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

Anna, I don't have a problem with that, I want to see the doctrine of the Torah, The Hebrews eyes have been closed to our mercy, and what God perfect plan did was save us as well. I wasn't born under the law, I was born under grace and mercy when I accepted Yeshua, why should I be bound.

I want to see the doctrine of the Torah, to see what difference if any it makes in my walk in love, every site and resource wants to explain what it is but will not lay out the doctrine (that I can find) now if it is simply the commandments I keep those in love in Yeshua

[James Pierce]

Evan,

I believe I already stated this to you, but no where in the scriptures did it ever say that Torah was bondage. Torah, in both the OT & NT is called holy, good, righteous.

If it comes out that you are to indeed keep Torah.. would you and your household make the change to keep Torah like Yeshuah and the Apostles?

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

I do whatever I need to do be pleasing in the sight of God, that is why I want to see the doctrine of the Torah.

[Anna]

Shalom Sis Fugett:

I see that you have a heart to learn and obey the things of God/YHWH.
Regarding the Torah, there are many places where we could start, but let's first define the word "Torah":

It is Strong's # 8451 meaning:

1) law, direction, instruction

a) instruction, direction (human or divine)

1) body of prophetic teaching

2) instruction in Messianic age

3) body of priestly direction or instruction

4) body of legal directives

b) law

1) law of the burnt offering

2) of special law, codes of law

c) custom, manner

d) the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H84...


The first verses in the Bible where the word Torah is used are:

Gen 26:5 Because 6118 that Abraham 85 obeyed 8085 my voice 6963, and kept 8104 my charge 4931, my commandments 4687, my statutes 2708, and my laws 8451.

Exd 12:49 One 259 law 8451 shall be to him that is homeborn 249, and unto the stranger 1616 that sojourneth 1481 among 8432 you.

Exd 13:9 And it shall be for a sign 226 unto thee upon thine hand 3027, and for a memorial 2146 between thine eyes 5869, that the LORD'S 3068 law 8451 may be in thy mouth 6310: for with a strong 2389 hand 3027 hath the LORD 3068 brought thee out 3318 of Egypt 4714.

Exd 16:4 Then said 559 the LORD 3068 unto Moses 4872, Behold, I will rain 4305 bread 3899 from heaven 8064 for you; and the people 5971 shall go out 3318 and gather 3950 a certain rate 1697 every day 3117 3117, that I may prove 5254 them, whether they will walk 3212 in my law 8451, or no.

Exd 16:28 And the LORD 3068 said 559 unto Moses 4872, How long refuse 3985 ye to keep 8104 my commandments 4687 and my laws 8451?

Exd 18:16 When they have a matter 1697, they come 935 unto me; and I judge 8199 between one 376 and another 7453, and I do make [them] know 3045 the statutes 2706 of God 430, and his laws 8451.

Exd 18:20 And thou shalt teach 2094 853 them ordinances 2706 and laws 8451, and shalt shew 3045 them the way 1870 wherein they must walk 3212 , and the work 4639 that they must do 6213 .

Exd 24:12 And the LORD 3068 said 559 unto Moses 4872, Come up 5927 to me into the mount
2022, and be there: and I will give 5414 thee tables 3871 of stone 68, and a law 8451, and commandments 4687 which I have written 3789 ; that thou mayest teach 3384 them.



How then does this relate to the New Covenant? It is the TORAH that is to be written in the heart and minds of the New Covenant believers:

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant 1285 that I will make 3772 with the house 1004 of Israel 3478; After 310 those days 3117, saith 5002 the LORD 3068, I will put 5414 my law 8451 in their inward parts 7130, and write 3789 it in their hearts 3820; and will be their God 430, and they shall be my people 5971.

It is the TORAH, that will be the laws of the Kingdom of God/YHWH on earth according to Isaiah and Micah:

Isa 2:3 And many 7227 people 5971 shall go 1980 and say 559 , Come 3212 ye, and let us go up 5927 to the mountain 2022 of the LORD 3068, to the house 1004 of the God 430 of Jacob 3290; and he will teach 3384 us of his ways 1870, and we will walk 3212 in his paths 734: for out of Zion 6726 shall go forth 3318 the law 8451, and the word 1697 of the LORD 3068 from Jerusalem 3389.


Mic 4:2 And many 7227 nations 1471 shall come 1980 , and say 559 , Come 3212 , and let us go up 5927 to the mountain 2022 of the LORD 3068, and to the house 1004 of the God 430 of Jacob 3290; and he will teach 3384 us of his ways 1870, and we will walk 3212 in his paths 734: for the law 8451 shall go forth 3318 of Zion 6726, and the word 1697 of the LORD 3068 from Jerusalem 3389.

So therefore any teaching about the Kingdom of YHWH which is yet to be established on earth MUST include teaching of who will be king, from where he will reign, and what will be the laws He will govern by, which I have proven will be the TORAH.

[Anna]

Sis Fugett:
Yahshua in His life was the embodiment of Torah.
2 Cor 5:21 states:

For he (YHWH) hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him/Yahshua.

Yahshua "knew no sin", he NEVER SINNED.

We have the NT definition of sin in.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So Yahshua never transgressed YHWH's laws.
He never violated YHWH's Sabbath, If He had He would be a sinner, and He could have been stoned by the Jews of His day who were trying

Sis Fugett:
Yahshua in His life was the embodiment of Torah.
2 Cor 5:21 states:

For he (YHWH) hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him/Yahshua.

Yahshua "knew no sin", he NEVER SINNED.

We have the NT definition of sin in.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So Yahshua never transgressed YHWH's laws.
He never violated YHWH's Sabbath, If He had He would be a sinner, and He could have been stoned by the Jews of His day who were trying desperately to find some way to get rid of Him.

He attests to His obedience to His Father in

John 15:10 -
..........even as I(Yahshua) have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 2:4-6 gives more insight to keeping the Father's commandments/Torah:

[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Plainly we can see that if we say we love YHWH and don't keep His commandments, we make ourselves LIARS.

If we walk as Yahshua walked, we also will endeavor to keep the commandments of YHWH which He kept.

Sis, can you think of any commandment that Yahshua kept that we should not keep?

Remember, He said "If you love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

I believe that Yahshua was on Mt Sinai when the Torah was given, therefore
ALL THE COMMANDMENTS/Torah given from Mt. Sinai were His commandments....

One additional thing, in Matt 5, Yahshua gives the following admonition and warning:


17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Evangelist:

Interestingly enough, 1st Corinthians 7:17-20 says a little of what you were saying, but I doubt that our friends here believe that. well, lets see what Paul said.......

17But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

18Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

20Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Alot of times when we are reading the text, we tend to over look the plain reading of the text. We tend to over look what the text is actually saying. Here is a close reading of the text, and some cultural background. 1 Corin 7:17-20:

Verse 18 - Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised.

Take note of the close reading of the text in what Paul was saying. Notice the second part,"He should not become uncircumcised." Literally speaking, one must ask the question of how exactly could man, who was circumcised, become uncircumcised? Could Paul mean that a man could actually put his foreskin back on his private area? Was Paul speaking literally of an actual circumcision? These questions should be taken into consideration.

Let us get a little cultural understanding in this. Many Jews in Paul's day was called the "circumcision party." This party, for the most part, and as shown in Acts 15, taught that circumcision saves, and that by becoming Jewish, they would have a part in the next world to come. To become circumcised, in these Jewish understanding, is to become Jewish.

When Paul told them not to seek to be uncircumcised, he was not speaking literal, for it would not make any sense, rather, he was speaking figuratively, referring to this circumcision as becoming Jewish. In order words, if you are Jewish by proselytezation, do not seek to become unproselyte.

The next part says,"Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised." Based on the cultural understanding of Paul's day, if one has not become a proselyte, or is a Gentile, if you will, then he/she should not seek to become Jewish.

Verse 19 - Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.
The cultural understanding would say that being Jewish is nothing, and not being Jewish is nothing. In Yeshuah, these things do not count. Galatians 5:6,"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Whether one is Jewish(circumcised), or whether someone is not Jewish(Uncircumcised), these things do not count. Paul is not discouraging disobedience to the Torah... to become circumcised, rather, Paul is refuting a certain group, obviously, that being in a certain culture matters to one's acceptance of Yehwah.

Notice the other part that Paul said,"Keeping God's commands is what counts." Yehwah commands each person that comes to keep Torah to become circumcised. If Paul was actuall discouraging people to not obey the Torah by not becoming circumcised, then he would be contradicting himself to say that keeping Yehwah's Torah is what counts. Again, Paul said KEEPING YEHWAH'S TORAH IS WHAT COUNTS, and not what cultural identification one is.

Paul, a Torah observant Benjaminite, was telling the Gentiles in 1 corinthians that keeping Torah is what counts. Paul realizes that the New Covenant includes the Torah, and it is decreed! It is not about who's Jewish, and who's Gentile. Why? Because from new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall worship Yehwah.. Amen?

Verse 20 - Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him.

This is self explanatory once you understand the cultural context. Each man should remain who he is, and in the situation he is one. Yehwah calls all men who is willing to obey him, and keep his Torah. Are you willing to adhere to Paul's words and keep Torah?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

FINALLY, you recognized the use of this scripture! I mentioned this scripture LOOOONG ago in other places, but you and others with you ignored it!! People tend to recognize an answer what they want to......

I'm willing to keep the teachings of Apostle Paul, but what you said was NOT what Paul was teaching here. You said:

"Verse 18 - Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised.

Take note of the close reading of the text in what Paul was saying. Notice the second part,"He should not become uncircumcised." Literally speaking, one must ask the question of how exactly could man, who was circumcised, become uncircumcised? Could Paul mean that a man could actually put his foreskin back on his private area? Was Paul speaking literally of an actual circumcision? These questions should be taken into consideration.

Let us get a little cultural understanding in this. Many Jews in Paul's day was called the "circumcision party." This party, for the most part, and as shown in Acts 15, taught that circumcision saves, and that by becoming Jewish, they would have a part in the next world to come. To become circumcised, in these Jewish understanding, is to become Jewish.

When Paul told them not to seek to be uncircumcised, he was not speaking literal, for it would not make any sense, rather, he was speaking figuratively, referring to this circumcision as becoming Jewish. In order words, if you are Jewish by proselytezation, do not seek to become unproselyte.

The next part says,"Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised." Based on the cultural understanding of Paul's day, if one has not become a proselyte, or is a Gentile, if you will, then he/she should not seek to become Jewish.

Verse 19 - Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.
The cultural understanding would say that being Jewish is nothing, and not being Jewish is nothing. In Yeshuah, these things do not count. Galatians 5:6,"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Whether one is Jewish(circumcised), or whether someone is not Jewish(Uncircumcised), these things do not count. Paul is not discouraging disobedience to the Torah... to become circumcised, rather, Paul is refuting a certain group, obviously, that being in a certain culture matters to one's acceptance of Yehwah."

I agree with this 100%!! This is TOTALLY ACCURATE my friend! However, you contradict yourself by saying that Paul kept all of the Torah, for Paul was not one that promoted circumcision at all, and this is in Torah. He did not promote circumcision, Sabbath observances, new moons, or any of that. You however have said that we are to be circumcises. Now if you mean "the heart", then ok, but you didn't mean that did you? You were talking literal foreskin. This is why I mentioned in the original question:

"-the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?"

Sabbaths, new moons, feasts, and circumcision are apart of the seal of the new covenant. Until Moses received the Law on Mt. Sinai, Sabbaths observance was non-existent. Abraham was counted righteous and he didn't observe Sabbaths or new moons, did he? This is the part of Torah that most ignore! Noah was counted righteous by listening to the voice of GOD and he was saved by believing HIM, and he never observed circumcisions or Sabbaths! Isn't this found in Torah? Have we forgotten that ALL that is found within the Bible has its origin in Genesis? The 7th day of rest when GOD created all things was the concept as to where GOD got it from to give to Moses, but before Moses, NO JEW OR GENTILE observed Sabbaths, and NO MAN observed circumcision before Abraham! This is ORINAL Torah teaching.

This is where GOD is leading us back to- Eden, the original state!

-No need for circumcisions, for we are already clean in our hearts!
-No need for Sabbaths and new moons, for GOD Himself will be our light, not the sun or moon!
-No need for Sabbaths and new moons, for times and seasons, because eternity has no time frame!
-No need for saying "Jew or Gentile", for all will be the Kingdom of Israel which literally means the "Kingdom of the Prince of GOD"

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

I agree with this 100%!! This is TOTALLY ACCURATE my friend! However, you contradict yourself by saying that Paul kept all of the Torah, for Paul was not one that promoted circumcision at all, and this is in Torah. He did not promote circumcision, Sabbath observances, new moons, or any of that. You however have said that we are to be circumcises. Now if you mean "the heart", then ok, but you didn't mean that did you? You were talking literal foreskin. This is why I mentioned in the original question:

the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?"

You are technically right. Paul did not promote, in a sense, the Torah. Again, as I stated before, the letters that Paul had written were written to already established Churches filled with his teaching. These Churches began to run into some problems as Paul points out in his letters. One could honestly say that the letters Paul wrote were letters to correct problems. Torah was never the problem.

The New Covenant has not been fulfilled just yet. Why? Because Yehwah says,"I will make a new covenant WITH Israel & Judah. The word "with" denotes that both parties must agree to the covenant. All of Israel has not yet agreed to this covenant.

When I was talking about circumcision there, I was not talking about the heart at all, and neither the foreskin. Paul was speaking figuratively there. How? Because you cannot possibly become uncircumcised after being circumcised! Let's be real here, Trevor. Paul was referring to the circumcision party of the Jews. Then Paul said that keeping Yehwah's Torah is what counts. It is not about being Jewish or Gentile. Keeping the commandments does include circumcision of the flesh. Paul did not negate that.

Sabbaths, new moons, feasts, and circumcision are apart of the seal of the new covenant. Until Moses received the Law on Mt. Sinai, Sabbaths observance was non-existent. Abraham was counted righteous and he didn't observe Sabbaths or new moons, did he? This is the part of Torah that most ignore! Noah was counted righteous by listening to the voice of GOD and he was saved by believing HIM, and he never observed circumcisions or Sabbaths! Isn't this found in Torah? Have we forgotten that ALL that is found within the Bible has its origin in Genesis? The 7th day of rest when GOD created all things was the concept as to where GOD got it from to give to Moses, but before Moses, NO JEW OR GENTILE observed Sabbaths, and NO MAN observed circumcision before Abraham! This is ORINAL Torah teaching.

I find it interesting that the scriptures does not support what you are stating. You stated that Yehwah will return back to an eden like state. Scripture seems to move forward to a world govern by torah, and not a world without it.(Isaiah 66)

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

One thing I noticed just now is that you have completely ignored the cultural understanding of Paul's words.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

James, you said:

"One cannot begin to explain away the New Testament teachings apart from the light of Torah & Prophets."

Thats where you have it backwards! One cannot explain away Torah & Prophets apart from the light of the New Testament. It is the New Testament that gives light to the Old Testament, not the other way around! No where in scripture can you prove otherwise. You are working totally backward!

I have been an honest Berean from the start of the debate. In fact, I'm the one that posted the debate after you challenged me to it, remember? I opened it up from the second question, but you refused to answer that and immediately went to the first, which is no problem for me. I also, was the one that went into the combination of O.T. & N.T. text verse by verse. Not you or anyone else. So if you want to call yourself being an honest Berean, then agree to these terms also:

-that you will use and respect N.T. text on the same level as O.T. text, and I will do the same
-that you will use N.T. text as the revelation of O.T. text, as it is properly done, and not the other way around, which is total error and the actions of an non-believing Orthodox Rabbi, and I will do the same
-that you will answer ALL the questions I present without excuse as to why you don't want to, and I will do the same
-that you also take the time to address the second question, which I have tried to do so before:

"The Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?"

Only on those terms can one truly understand Torah from the light that the FATHER sheds through His HOLY SPIRIT, and this is the only way you can successfully continue........

Do we have terms?