Polygamy... Is it scriptural, or does Yah forbid such?

[James Pierce]

What speakest thou?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Refuted??? You haven't refuted anything. The only thing you did was give accusations and opinions with scriptures tossed in it. Your points are strong, but they are strictly from your cultural point of view. The Kingdom of Heaven is alot more diverse than you allow for it to be. GOD is alot more understanding than you give Him credit for. The ONLY PLACE that GOD spoke about polygamy is in Exodus and Leviticus. Moses reiterated what was spoken in Deuteronomy. No place in the NT was polygamy an issue. Polygamy does NOT go under the categories of either adultery, or lust, or fornication. It never did.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

I am not sure how to respond to that brother. He isn't reasonable.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

There is no response that can be given other than these two: accepting the truth of the matter, even if it is against your cultural understanding, or rejecting it due to ignorance or flat out rebellion. The facts are clear:

- Neither the NT Apostles, OR EVEN JESUS HIMSELF addressed polygamy, yet history shows that it was being practiced even during their time. Any scripture used to say that JESUS spoke against this would be in error because CHRIST only spoke about adultery and fornication, not polygamy.
- No man or woman was even condemned for polygamy within either the OT or the NT scriptures.
- Torah laws were never against it, but regulated it to keep it from getting out of hand within the home.
- Polygamy wasn't practiced as much or even mention in the NT simply because Paul was dealing with Roman Gentiles. If you have any understanding of Greco-Roman culture, you would understand that Roman culture is traditionally monogamous, but ancient Hebrew culture was polygamous. This is evident with almost all of the sons of Abraham, Ishmael, Issac, Esau, and Israel.

[keith]

James the reason you do not know how to respond is because you do not understand what I have laid out. Read Leviticus 18:18 in the oldest copy of the Torah. Written by hebrews who left Temple worship aprroximately 300 to 100 BCE. Read their Halakhic letter written to the High Priest. They made 22 points of error that the temple priest were doing. A major point was polygamy/polygyny.

When you have read it let me know. These hebrews have Leviticus written in paleo hebrew stating at Leviticus 18:18 thou shalt not take one wife to another.

read with your heart not with personal feelings and old instruction, read my posts then respond with more than "we all know polygamy Father YAH is not against polygyny", that is repetitious and means nothing, you can say it amillion times and that will not make it correct

please...open your heart

[James Pierce]

Keith,

What does this have to do with Cohenim? I am not a Cohenim, so it's best to leave them out of the picture. I said I do not know how to respond is because you're not being reasonable at all, man. You stated that polygamy is sin, when it is not.

[keith]

Have you not read that the Priests make all rulings and judgements as it relate to Torah. If the priests teach polygamy and its wrong then it must be corrected to stop the people from being corrupted.

You continue to say the same thing "polygamy is not a sin" but provide no scripture at all. If you tire of this dialogue then let me know. Address my scriptures and references and questions. Is that too difficult?

Now I know you owe me no explanation so if that is your response I can accept it.

Can you explain to me how I am unreasonable?


Is scripture unreasonable when it goes against your belief system? Yes

[James Pierce]

Keith,

Let's start with this... According to scriptures.. does polygamy violate Yah Himself, and His word?

[keith]

Trevor I see no scripture in your response. It is purely your feelings. You have been instructed incorrectly. Although you and James sound sincere in your beliefs.

Please Read the Scriptures and open your heart. This is not western culture. This is our Heavenly Father's culture. Have you ever heard of concubines in Rome. They had plenty. Why did the catholic church have to outlaw polygamy in their empire? You see polygamy is canaanite culture, assyrian culture, greek culture, certain african culture, etc., etc.

You are correct the argument is very strong because it is what Father YAH says.

Did you not see the correct interpretation of exodus 21 in my previous post?
That is not polygamy it is regulating a slave girl for purchase to be a bride.

If you are referring to leviticus, you are correct. It does talk about polygamy/polygyny.

Leviticus 18:18 Lev 18:18 Dead Sea scrolls (Temple Scroll and Damascus document) - `And a woman unto another thou dost not take, to be an adversary, to uncover her nakedness beside her, in her life.

Here is the accepted translation:Lev 18:18 KJV - Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex [her], to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life [time].

You can not a woman to another to marry

This is the interpretation from 2000 years ago by hebrews who were former sadducees. Do you presume to know more or have greater knowledge of scripture than these hebrews? (i say this to make a point not to insult)

Are you or James even familiar with the oldest copy of the Torah (the Dead Sea Scrolls). The hebrew phrase (one to another) is used 35 times in the old testament and it means one to another.

Go to google books and look up Toward Old Testament Ethics by Kaiser. I have the paperback. Look up a book written in 1836 by S. E. Dwight The Hebew Wife as well. Dont reject what you do not know. Read it then reject it. Or do your own research then reject it or accept it.

You are not following me on Matthew 19:5 Please read:

Mat 19:4 KJV - And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,

Mat 19:5 KJV - And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Mat 19:6 KJV - Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

When asked about divorce he first defined marriage two become one (not 3 become one, not four, not five, etc etc). This is telling you that marriage is only one man and one woman. Can you argue with this statement by The Annointed? What does it mean to you?

What does Ge 2:24 mean to you?
What does it say to your heart?

Have you read Mal 2:14-16?
What does it mean to you?
What does it say to your heart?
Read it here?
Mal 2:14 KJV - Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet [is] she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

Mal 2:15 KJV - And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.


Question: Should we base our way of life on how imperfect men lived theirs?

Answer these questions (I asked them before)
1. Was 2Sam 12:7-8 a promise for Davisd and only David or for all of
Israel?
2.Which of Sauls wives did he marry?
3. Is not the verses merely saying that I gave you (David) everything that
was Sauls?
4. Would not Davids wives violate Deut 17:17 Read:
Deu 17:16 KJV - But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.

Deu 17:17 KJV - Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

Now most persons state "surely The Most High does not limit David to one wife, because that means he can have only one horse and one gold piece and one silver piece. Well if you feel that horses gold and silver are equivalent to a woman then so be it. Also if that argument is true then David should have only had eight horses and eight pieces of gold and eight pieces of silver.

I am of the opinion a wife is worth more than any amount of silver or gold.
Hold it! Now isn't that a proverb!? or Psalm!? Written by David or maybe Solomon (who violated Deut 17:17).

Those who believe as you do argue from a manly, worldly point. In other words if Abraham did it so can I. Do you not know that Israel was an idol worshiping people for a large part of their history. Should we copy that as well? And that was a violation of commandment #2. Polygamy is a violation of Ge 2:24 and Lev 18:18. But just because people, man violate it does not we can do it. How long did it take the Most High to punish Israel for their lack of observation of Passover? Was there a punishment? Well since there was no punishment we dont have to keep Passover. No I dont think so.

What was Racel punishment for honoring idols? (mother of Joseph)
What was Moses punishment for murder?
What was Davids punishment for adultery, murder and polygamy?
What was Abrahams punishment for marrying his sister?

What does The Most High say about lesbianism (can you quote scripture)
What does Father YAH say about a man marrying his daughter?

You must always worship Father YAH with your heart mind and soul (Deut 6:5).

Always live by Leviticus 19:18. Yes your wife is your neighbor too. If you do not want to share her with other men then why would you subject her to vexation by having her share you with other women. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU TREVOR.

Keep in mind I am responding to your points. There are many other points I can make if you wish to continue the dialogue. But my response is not just to you but to all who are reading this topic.

I really do not intend to offend anyone.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

You STILL did not show that the GOD of all creation punished ANYONE for polygamy! Not one person was ever punished for it. NOT ONE! You said something that was totally false:

"What was Davids punishment for adultery, murder and polygamy?
What was Abraham's punishment for marrying his sister?"

1) Where did it ever say in the entire Bible (you choose your translation) that Abraham was punished for marrying Sarah his half-sister.

2) Where did it ever say in the Bible (again, you choose your translation) that David was punished for polygamy?

You won't be able to provide the scriptures because THEY DON'T EXIST! If I'm wrong, then prove it to be so, and I will recant all my statements concerning that. Also, you said that I didn't provide scriptures. I provided scriptures from the start of my response to this very blog.

[keith]

Trevor, You have just proven my point. You are so right. There is no punishment that i can find for Davids murder and adultery ( i will leave off polygamy for you). I can see no punishment for Abraham marrying his sister.

Your argument now has crumbled by your own admission. Pay attention:

Your premise is: Polygamy/Polygyny is lawful because Father YAH never specifically punished anyone for it.

So I presented with you with scenarios in which persons were not specifically punished for their unlawful behavior. See below:

Read Judges ch 18, What was the levites punishment for
idol worship? Answer=none.
Rachel was not punished for her idol worship.
Moses was not punished for his murder of the egyptian.
Abraham was not punished for lying twice to the egyptian king
or Abimelech.
Abraham was not punished for marrying his sister.
Cain was not punished for murdering Abel.
Lot and his two daughters were not punished for incest.

By you and James' reasoning "if there is no punishment there is no transgression"

idol worship is lawful (rachel and judges ch 18 no punishment)
murder is lawful (moses and cain no punishment)
lying is lawful (Abraham and even Isaac were not punished)
incest with your daughter and sister is lawful (Lot and Abraham
were not punished)

Do you see the fallacy of your reasoning?

Question? Do you know what the Dead Sea Scrolls are?

I have refuted your listing of Ex 21, Deut 21, 2sam 12, and even addressed levirate marriage that you did not bring up. Do you not have a rebuttal? I think not. Because as you said yourself

"Your points are strong"

But I disagree with you on that statement; Father YAH law is strong. And since his law is all what I am quoting you cannot speak against it.

[newview]

Read Judges ch 18, What was the levites punishment for
idol worship? Answer=none.
Rachel was not punished for her idol worship.
Moses was not punished for his murder of the egyptian.
Abraham was not punished for lying twice to the egyptian king
or Abimelech.
Abraham was not punished for marrying his sister.
Cain was not punished for murdering Abel.
Lot and his two daughters were not punished for incest.

Amen Bro Keith...
And theres more to that list.

[James Pierce]

Keith,

It is not more so if punishment is there or not. Rather, Yah provides rules for men who have several wives.(Deut 21).