Torah vs Prophets vs Yahushua & Gospels vs Paul

[James Pierce]

All of these agree that Torah is still in effect, and we must obey Torah. Why is it that Christianity rejects Torah, when the earliest Church, including the Apostles, kept Torah?

[Mark H. Stevens, Th.D]

Galatians 5:16-18
Be guided by the Spirit, then you won't be focused on selfish desires. Purely selfish desires are contrary to what the Spirit desires for us–there is a conflict. You simply cannot do just whatever you feel like doing. But if you allow yourself to be led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

One of the problems of living under the law was that the law anticipated that the individual would do the right thing by virtue of strict obedience. One didn't have to understand or choose–didn't even have to think. One only had to follow the directions–to obey. While the law forced compliance by behavior, it didn't necessarily require much from the inner person.

In sharp contrast to the law the New Covenant is all about the spirituality of the individual. Salvation is not given by works of the body (behavior), but by works of the spirit (faith).

Another major difference between the two Covenants is that the Law presumed that everything would be performed by the individual. The New Covenant provides for a Helper, a Counselor, a Comforter, as promised by Jesus in John 14. This Counselor is the Holy Spirit, Who would guide us into all the truth, Jesus said.

Paul tells the Galatians if they follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, if they focus on the guidance of the Holy Spirit, they won't go wrong. They will lose interest in purely selfish, self-indulgent desires. They will begin to have interest in others.

Human nature, being what it is, is naturally self-interested. It is the instinct of self-preservation and self-indulgence at whatever cost. Akin to animal instinct, its desires are contrary to what the Spirit desires for us. The Spirit's desire for us is to become loving, and by extension, caring and compassionate. It is easy to see, then, that what the Spirit desires for us conflicts with human nature.

Paul sums up this section by saying that even though we are free to do whatever we want, because we choose to live under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which simply means that, in spite of our freedom, we do not do whatever we want. But allowing ourselves to be led by the Spirit is not the same thing as living under the law. Instead of acting out of fear of retribution, we are learning to act in loving ways because we are coming to understand that we are loved.

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

Paul talked about living under the animal sacrifice law. The Moral Law is the covenant of God. What is a covenant? Is it not an agreement between 2 or more people and or entities? The agreement between God and man is this: First man must be baptized and repent because all have sinned. Then Man keeps the Moral Law best to his ability, and repent when necessary for the rest of his or her life or until the Lord makes his second coming. Then if you do well, the Promise is that the Lord will give you eternal life, and you will rule with him in his Kingdom. That is the good news because in Paul's day everybody knew that you had to do the animal sacrifice when you sinned. These are the deeds of the law Paul spoke about. He knew that the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin. So it was really vain, but it was the shadow of things to come. That is why he preached Jesus Christ because under the new covenant you did not have to sacrifice animals, you just needed to be baptized, and repent for your sins, and continue to keep the law. The Gentiles were under the impression that since the Nation of Israel still sacrificed animals, they were to sacrifice animals in order to have their sins forgiven them, and if it was going to count with serving the God of Israel. The Nation of Israel did not believe Jesus was who he said he was so, they continued to sacrifice animals until they were kicked out of the land in 70ad. So the law is not done away with. Just the animal sacrifice law. This is why the temple ripped in twine when Jesus died on the cross.

[James Pierce]

Mark,

You said: One of the problems of living under the law was that the law anticipated that the individual would do the right thing by virtue of strict obedience. One didn't have to understand or choose–didn't even have to think. One only had to follow the directions–to obey. While the law forced compliance by behavior, it didn't necessarily require much from the inner person.

Obedience in that sense has never changed. Even after the resurrection of Yahushua, the Apostles and the early assembly were keeping the Torah, and you sure well know this! Paul maintained the statement of upholding the Torah(Romans 3:31). We do not throw away the Torah because of Yahushua, we continue to keep it.

Did not Paul state in 1 Corin 7:19 that keeping the commandments of Yahuah is what counts? If that is true, then why are you not keeping Torah, Mark? Yahushua said in Luke 11:28 that blessed are they that hear the word of Yahuah, and observe it! Which word was He referring to? THE TORAH! Why are you rejecting the blessings?

You stated that the Torah did not require much from the inner person. Hmmm, that is odd, because Deut 11:18 states,"and you shall put these words in your heart and in your soul." That is very inner, for if Torah is not in you, then how are you able to carry it out truthfully? So, the inner person is very much required, because the heart IS the inner person.

You said: In sharp contrast to the law the New Covenant is all about the spirituality of the individual. Salvation is not given by works of the body (behavior), but by works of the spirit (faith). Another major difference between the two Covenants is that the Law presumed that everything would be performed by the individual. The New Covenant provides for a Helper, a Counselor, a Comforter, as promised by Jesus in John 14. This Counselor is the Holy Spirit, Who would guide us into all the truth, Jesus said.

Torah does not presume everything to be done by the individual. There are teachings in the Torah that only men can do, that only women can do, and that only priest can do. Also, there are teachings in the Torah where the whole house of Israel must do together. You are basically implying that Torah was hard to do without the Holy Spirit. This is what Torah says in Deut 30:11-13,"because this commandment that I command you today is not excessive nor is it far from you. It is not in the sky saying: Who will go up to the sky and get it for us? And when we hear it, we shall do it. Neither is it beyond the sea, saying: Who will cross to the other side for us and get it for us? And when we hear it, we shall also do it."

So, Torah is not difficult to carry out, whether you have the Holy Spirit or not. If you read Yahushua words carefully, He told us "how" the Holy Spirit will help us. John 16:13,"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."

So the Spirit is here to:

1) Guide us into all truth
2) And declares things that are to come

The Torah has been so mispresented, and taught wrong, that it caused Yahuah's people to go off track. The Spirit is here to keep us straight and walking in TRUE obedience. He declares us things that coming soon. Do not twist the scriptures, Mark.

You said: Paul tells the Galatians if they follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, if they focus on the guidance of the Holy Spirit, they won't go wrong. They will lose interest in purely selfish, self-indulgent desires. They will begin to have interest in others.

First, walking in the ways of the Torah is walking in TRUE OBEDIENCE to the father. let me give you some common sense, for which you are lacking. Not obeying Torah IS walking in your flesh. If you are not keeping the Sabbath, then you ARE walking after your flesh. If you are eating Pork, shellfish, and food contained with blood, then you ARE walking in your flesh. So, walking in the ways of the Spirit IS walking in true obedience to the Torah. Do not get it twisted, Mark.

You said: Human nature, being what it is, is naturally self-interested. It is the instinct of self-preservation and self-indulgence at whatever cost. Akin to animal instinct, its desires are contrary to what the Spirit desires for us. The Spirit's desire for us is to become loving, and by extension, caring and compassionate. It is easy to see, then, that what the Spirit desires for us conflicts with human nature.

Walk in the ways of the Spirit means walking in obedience to the Torah. No Torah, then no walking in the Spirit's ways. Remember, the Spirit only speaks what he hears, and so he's not gonna hear anything contrary to what the Torah teaches, Mark.

You said: Paul sums up this section by saying that even though we are free to do whatever we want, because we choose to live under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which simply means that, in spite of our freedom, we do not do whatever we want. But allowing ourselves to be led by the Spirit is not the same thing as living under the law. Instead of acting out of fear of retribution, we are learning to act in loving ways because we are coming to understand that we are loved.

We are free to do whatever we want, just as long as its in compliance with the Torah. Being led by the Spirit does not negate obedience to the Torah. Are you saying that Paul, while lead by the Spirit, kept the Torah... He was really not being lead by the Spirit? You probably will not answer this, because you can't.

[BruthaPharoah]

BRUTHA WATSON, COULD YOU EXPLAIN WHY YAHSHUA SAID THAT MOSE IS THE 1 THAT ACCUSE YOU TO THE FATHER???

JOHN5:
45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

WHY DID YAHSHUA SAY AS LONG AS THERE IS A HEAVEN AND A EARTH THE LAW GOOD???

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

WHY DID PAUL SAY THE LAW WAS JUST HOLY AND GOOD

ROMAN7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

CURIOUS TO KNOW HOW WE CAN READ THE SCRIPTURE AND NOT KNO THAT WE ARE TO DO WHAT THUS SAITH THE LORD ????

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

That is a good Post Brother Pharoah

[A.W. Bowman]

My friends, consider:

Most Christians do not live their lives under grace, but rather in a state of rebellion. If it were not for the breaking of Torah (The Law), there would be no place, role, or purpose for God's grace. For where there is no law, man is not held accountable for his sin - for sin is defined by God to be the transgression of Torah (the instructions for a godly life, the Law).

What the church has been taught by the RCC priesthood is that 'The Church' has the right (even an obligation) to make up its own theology, doctrines and religious rules, separate from the scriptures. Even after separating ourselves from that religious order, our world view continues to be dominated by their pagan belief system, rather than walking in the belief system of Jesus Christ, His Apostles, and the majority of His disciples of the first 300 years of church history.

We have divided ourselves over the concept of either living under grace or under the law. It is neither of these two things: It is complying with our God given instructions on living a holy (set apart) life on the one hand, and on the other hand, living with God's grace for failing to meeting those requirements. Yet, until the majority of professing Christian come to the understanding that it was not the Mt. Sinai covenant that was weak and contained flaws. The flaws, the imperfection in the covenant was with the sons of Israel, the people.

Under the terms of the latest covenant, we have the promised assistance of God's own Spirit to assist us. However, even with that help, men continue to fail – even to some falling away altogether. Look about! Even with God's Spirit, and after 2,000 years of effort, we still can't get our religious act together! Even so, from our self appointed positions of spiritual heights, we wag our fingers at the Jews at how they missed the boat. What comes to mind is the story of a splinter in a person's eye and a big stick stuck in one's own eye.

Remember, even now, the Spirit will only lead and guide. The problem with man is the same it has always been: We have to be willing to follow that leading and submit to that guidance in order to make any real progress at all.

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

God bless you Bro.Bowman for teaching with clarity. The very reason we are in a continuous debate on the interpretation of the Scriptures is because . . . .

". . . .with God's Spirit, and after 2,000 years of effort, we still can't get our religious act together! Even so, from our self appointed positions of spiritual heights, we wag our fingers at the Jews at how they missed the boat. What comes to mind is the story of a splinter in a person's eye and a big stick stuck in one's own eye.

Remember, even now, the Spirit will only lead and guide. The problem with man is the same it has always been: We have to be willing to follow that leading and submit to that guidance in order to make any real progress at all."

In His Grace,
Chaplain Harris

[A.W. Bowman]

You do me honor. Thank you.

[Pastor valentine]

This is all false doctrne in Form and in fashion. The Bible says the God , is A God of Order. The only vs we have in scripture is God vs satan and We WIN.[ The People of God.]

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

Where can you show in the Bible where we are wrong?

[Pastor valentine]

We find this in the bible, from Genesis to Revelation and all in between.

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

Give me some scriptures.