CONVERSION and SALVATION: Are they the same thing or significantly different?

[HOPE - Psalm 43:5]

Is there a difference between conversion and salvation?

[Caral]

Dear Minister Tracy,

I believe that there is a difference.

When we look at the conversion of Saul, we see that he was converted on the road to Damacus, he received from God, spiritual enlightenment, his spirituality was awaken to the reality that Jesus Christ was in fact The Holy one of Israel, and the church he had been persecuting was the Lord Himself. However, Paul, did not receive his fully assured salvation until he was filled with the Spirit and baptized in water.

When we partake in the baptism of death with our Lord (Rom 6:4) we are resurrected into newness of life and become a brand new creation, (2 Cor 5:17) it is at this point our spirit has been joined and fused to the Lord's Spirit (1cor 6:17) we become one with the Son and therefore with the Father (John 17:21) we are have become fully regenerated, and our salvation is assured.

This is my understanding, many may disagree.

Be blessed
Caral

Ed: Romans 6:4 (NKJV) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

2 Cor 5: 17 (NKJV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

1Cor 6:17 (NKJV) But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

John 17:21 ( NKJV) that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us.

[HOPE - Psalm 43:5]

Caral, I'm going to ask a question.... but when I ask this of others, they think I'm against baptism... which I am not, I'm all for it!!

But I asked this of many others. If one of our soldiers who are fighting in the desert hears the word of God and believes the Word spoken to them and is killed before being water baptized is his salvation incomplete?


Romans 10:8-14
Ephesians 2:8-9


How do we reconcile

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

With these scriptures:
Matthew 26:28
Acts 13:37-39
Acts 15:7-11
John 6:53-56
Acts 19:3-5


And when we consider baptism... why don't we consider the corelation to the mikvah and ritual cleansing and purification???



"Mikvah" - (f., pl. "Mikvaot"); a ritual pool of water, used for the purpose of attaining ritual purity. Immersion in a Mikvah is performed for the following main purposes:

It is used in connection with Repentance to remove the impurity of sin.

It is also used in connection with Conversion, because the convert has taken upon himself or herself to adopt the lifestyle of the Jew, that is based on the recognition of God as King of the Universe and on the obligation to perform the commandments of the Torah.


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Niddah" - (f., pl. "Niddot"); literally "removed or separated;" generally in the context of Jewish Marital Laws (known as "Taharat HaMishpacha," or Family Purity). When a married woman is in the menstrual state, Jewish Law requires a period of separation from her husband.

It is the obligation of the woman to examine herself, and if she detects even the smallest drop of blood, she must inform her husband, and they must withdraw from each other, until her period of "clean days" is over. Then she should immerse herself in a Mikvah, and afterwards, they should return to each other and resume normal marital relations.

Prophets also use the term to depict the People of Israel when they are involved in sin, such as immorality or idol-worship or violence, and consequent estrangement from HaShem.

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

Tracy, Water Baptism is commanded of us as an outward show of conversion, we are baptised because we ARE SAVED, have salvation, not to be saved. So the answer to your question is that the soldier's salvation would be complete.

There is nothing that a man or we on earth can do to save us, only our confession that Jesus lived, died, rose, and ascended does that

[Caral]

Hi Tracy

With regard to the soldiers, as a hypothetical question I am always step cautiously. It raises a number of questions, one problem is if they are American or British the chance of them not hearing the Word of God or the Gospel previously I believe would be fairly remote. This also raises the question, are they now agreeing with the gospel because they have are looking eternity in the face, whereas they may have rejected it previously. Is there deathbed repentance?

Conversely if God has called them and chosen them to salvation and He has chosen that they are saved in the last moments of life, then so be it, they are saved and we praise God.

With regard to the area being desert, so therefore no water for full immersion. The Didache (circa 100 AD) does say that baptism can be performed with running water.

7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize.
7:2 Having first recited all these things, baptize {in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit} in living (running) water.
7:3 But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water;
7:4 and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm.
7:5 But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
7:6 But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able;
7:7 and thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before.

[HOPE - Psalm 43:5]

I agree with what you say but for some reason just bcuz I ask these types of questions it is assumed that I discount the significance of water baptism. I don't we are commanded to be baptized. The babptism that I don't agree with is sprinkling and baptizing infants and non Believers.

I also would like to add that it is part of the Jewish culuture. It is not something new that popped on the scene with John the Baptizer and with Jesus and the apostles. It is a ritual cleansing. But Gods word tells us that we are cleansed by His blood and by His word also. We can't take the scripture that commands us to be baptized for the remission of sins out of context of the chapter, the book, nor the whole Bible.

We need the complete picture not just one scripture.

Baptism is an outward sign of what happened on the inside but in context of the entire Bible it is a purification ritual that Jesus wanted us to continue.

Evg Fuggett hit the nail on the head when she said there is NOTHING we can do to save ourselves. Salvation is a gift of God not of any works on our part lest any person should boast.

It is by grace we are saved thru faith, it is a gift of God as we confess with our mouths our belief in the Lord Jesus and that He was raised from the dead all according to the scriptures that is preached to a person which gives them faith (by hearing) .

Salvation says I believe

Conversion says Now that I believe I commit to the lifestyle of the on in Whom I believe.

I have another question... Where does repentance come in?? Salvation or conversion or both???

In other words do you have to repent to get saved?

I guess an even better question is what is everyones understanding or definition of repentance?

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

The man was saved, because first and foremost as the pastor stated no man on earth can play God, or do do what Jesus has already done. His confession was enough, and if it wasn't sincere, only God sees the heart

[Child of the Kingdom]

[HOPE - Psalm 43:5]

It seems you are missing your instrument(s) while beating the horse. Your video has sound but the PICTURE is incomplete.

Kinda proves a point doesn't it? LOL

We talk about the repentance and salvation aspect of baptism and forget to mention the OT root for an even deeper understanding of the signifcance of baptism.

As Christians, we tend to toss out our Jewish Roots... that we were grafted into. *sigh*

The one thing I tell people all the time is.. if you don't like a discussion, why participate?

Go 'head mamacita... dance to your video.

[HOPE - Psalm 43:5]

If you really want to participate, why not answer the orignial question of the discussion.

[HOPE - Psalm 43:5]

Bro. Cheeks, you said something so important. You said:

I think we need to be very careful about making these sweeping statements that does not factor in all to God’s word. When a passage is interpreted in isolation of its context and in disagreement with the whole written revelation of God we have disagreements and division.

I totally agree with that statement. Baptism incompasses so much more than the one act that we reduce it to. When you look at it from the Whole Bible context... oh man! BEAUTIFUL !!!!

[HOPE - Psalm 43:5]

Friends, you know I truly dislike LOOOOONG posts. PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR THIS ONE. But I know that some may not have their bibles with them so I posted the passage along with the scriptures.

How do we reconcile the scripture that we all know and understand:

Acts 2:38 – Repent, Baptism, Remission, Holy Ghost
Then Peter said unto them,
1. REPENT,
2. and BE BAPTIZED every one of you
3. IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST
4. for the REMISSION OF SINS,
5. and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of THE HOLY GHOST


With the following scriptures:


Romans 10:8-14 if we looked at this scripture by itself like we do Acts 2:38, where is baptism?

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
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Ephesians 2:8-9 - can this scripture stand alone like Acts 2:38?

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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Matthew 26:28 – Communion, the Blood shed for Remission of Sins – can this scripture stand alone?

26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
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Acts 13:37-39 – BELIEVE and be justified

37But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
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Acts 15:7-11 – Dispute over Jew and Gentile Purification (albeit this passage deals with circumcision, vs. 9 refers to the Levitical/priestly pronunciation of being “clean”. Why is the mention of purification here?

7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
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John 6:53-56 – Communion, Blood, Eternal Life

53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
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Acts 19:3-5 – A baptism of repentance and need to be re-baptized?? Why?

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
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Mark 10:38-40 – What was Jesus’s baptism that the Disciples would partake in?

38But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
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Romans 6:1-5 – the Outward expression of what has happened spiritually

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


What is the complete picture of Baptism? Can a concordance word search give you a complete picture or is there possibly more to it and the word “baptism” is not even used?

[HOPE - Psalm 43:5]

There are several scriptures that refer to baptism as being a precursor to the remission of sins. We don’t dispute that we find this in the scriptures. Are you ready for the big question?

THE BIG QUESTION: WHY WAS JESUS BAPTIZED? DID HE HAVE SINS TO CONFESS? WAS IT FOR THE REMISSION OF HIS SINS?

Mark 1:4-12
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;

7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.