Whats you thought on the pay for Musicians

[DR.Marietta Brown]

Do you think Musicians are paid to much for there services. Do you think they should be held accountable to a local Pastors.

[Minister Tony Gillion]

Yes, I think musicians should be pay for their services. Music Ministry is my lively-hood; I sleep, eat, drink, and dream about music. I have the spiritual and natural training to do what I do to the Glory of God. Even though I love it and dsplay it in the House of God, yes, I should get paid. Musicians that are accountable and are growing those that they work with, should be compensated for their services. One must first be saved, and then dedidcated to the cause.

[Minister Paul Youngblood]

Sometime ago in another post,I had eluded to a publication that is a comprehensive book of compensation for Church staff salaries that include Minister of Music and musicians positions.The name of the book is The 2009 Compensation Handbook for 2009.You can order it at www.churchstaffing.com........there it is Pastor Lorenzo Edwards...sorry it took so long.This book gives a very through breakdown of compensation for many positions,including janitorial and secretarial positions,all the way through to Pastor's compensation-Be Blessed

[Bishop Matthew E. Bradby, II]

Yes I agree the music ministry in the church has gotten out of hand! It's big business and many musicians aren't saved! It's a job! Many jazz musicians get $100-$200 a night while the church musician gets $300-$1200 per service! Many get 3 to 4 times the money senior pastors get! Yes we need to raise up another remnant of minstrels dedicated to the Lord, focused on ministry and those dedicated to building up their local church! We need to re-focus ministry, take the dollars out of it because it's getting to the point that the poor can no longer enjoy worship!

What's next, selling tickets to Sunday worship to pay people! WWJD! Our musicians need to be ministers and have the freedom to do ministry but must have a local church that they tithe, give offerings and servant. WE need to place the house in order! Did we not forget that Lucifer was a worship leader 1st? Sometimes get gifting can go wrong but i agree that there are great gifted minister and musicians who are sold out for Christ, who work a full time job (not be lazy like many of the musicians I have encountered) and use their gifting for ministry and not monetary gain! Be blessed my friends!!!!

[Minister Paul Youngblood]

Bishop...let me ask you a question,because some of your comments seem to contradict what you have stated...so let me make sure I got this right....if a musician doesn't work a full-time job...then they are not sold-out to Christ???and that makes them lazy,and because of some lazy musicians that you have encountered,then all musicians are lazy,that's almost like me saying that some of your comments are very ignorant and stereotypical...then should I believe or surmise that ALL Bishops are the same.And while you are at it,find 500 black church musicians making $1200.00 PER SERVICE......IT AIN'T HAPPENING!!!...and when you take the dollars out....your church and many churches will be singing by tracks.........I am really appalled by the ignorance of leaders who are at the very core of the problem....but the Musicians are crucified for the ignorance and complacency of others......we are the minority,not the majority

[Elder Bryan Reese]

I am an ordained minister, however I am also a musician. I make apprx. in range of $300 a week. I have never felt guilty about the amount of money I make from the church because I feel like there are business aspects of the church as well. I actually care about my choirs. I lead them in Yoga workouts as well as weekly exercises. I host workshops and invite my friends to tutor them in voice one on one. I do more than what is required of my position. At the same time, I do not believe the church pays me for singing songs to the lord. I do that for him. They do not pay me for the keys that I press on sunday morning. I do that for God as well. However, the church really pays me for transportation back and to rehearsals, dealing with individualistic attitudes and personalities, and putting up with the awful keys some people sing in! I think people only have a problem with paying a musician if they cannot afford to pay one. But I wouldnt turn a negative ear to the idea. Simply because that is why you probaly dont have one! We dont pay the fire chief top salary because he goes into fire. We pay him because he knows how to demand others into the fire!

[James L. Brown]

I have been reading some of the recent responses and I have to chime in again just because this issue is so close to my heart. Pastors....please understand that we as musicians (majority at least) love what we do and who we do it for. Music is a Ministry that is geared to help soothe the troubled soul and calm the troubled mind (ie...David playing the harp for Saul) so music has a definite spiritual impact on the heart, mind and soul and can definitely impact the worship experience in ways that none of us can either control or predict, God moves in his own way and we are the vehicles that he is allowing or should I say authorizing to complete his assignment in his service (Musicians were appointed...)

Having said that from the foundations of time the church provided for the levites wih food housing and money among other things, musicians were to be playing skillfully on the instruments and they studied all day to accomplish that task. Now in present day we as musicians atleast some of us can't afford to practice all day because we have jobs and families to support, or churches that are able to provide the salary that we deserve are not forth coming with reasonable compensation...(notice I did say reasonable) We would love to stay at one church our whole career if that is possible but in order to be able to do that some things must happen on both sides to make that more of a reality in this day..

now mind you I am no authority on what is and what is not proper I'm am just giving my two cents and if you do not agree with what I say that is your perogative....Both sides should agree on what the Job description is requiring from both parties- The church usually in most cases has a laundry list of responsibilities for the musician but then on the other hand only a few obligations for what the church will do for the musician. 2nd If you say you are going to provide benefits to the musician if you are able to then provide benefits for the musician. 3rd No musician likes to play on bad instruments do what you can to maintain proper instruments and if that is a duty for him/her to maintain then when he puts in a order to have it done...don't make him wait till the next couple of months to have it done 4th if you say that your church has 2 services and a weds night service then make sure that your church has 2 services and a wed night service and if you have more services then say that upfront or just expect to compensate the musician for the extra-services renderd...

Pastors go around all year accepting ingagements and fellowships and they usually receive some sort of honorarium for preaching God's word, and usually we have to go (we being musicians) whether we want to or not it could be a ymca engagement and you all can decide at the last minute tha tyou want the choir to sing two selections just so you can have some people in the building with you and most of the time you don't consider whether the musician has something important going on or not...most churches have a way of treating us like numbers and not indiviuals and that can become over time...offensive...we value our time just like anybody else....there are a lot of other areas that can be touched on but I don't have the time or space to say everything I need to say, hopefully this forum will help to keep the dialog healthy and informative...this is a area that truly needs to be addressed in every city and community so that Pastors and Musicians can get back on the same page and help this situation. Whether we want to admit this or not you have to have a business mind and spiritual mind concerning this issue. I pray that all churches and musicians can finally be on one accord as it relates to God's Kingdom and his people.

[DR.Marietta Brown]

Brother James L. Brown , well written with good points. I am a Senior Pastor,so we recieve some of your points. We can all continue to learn. The spirit that your comments were written in were great. Be Blessed .

[Minister Paul Youngblood]

Bishop T...You said a much needed word......now here is my method of clearing out a lot of riff-rafff...and one thing to you Pastors and other church folk...let me take you into the mind-set of a musician...before I go to my other point.I am getting ready to reveal to you one of the most closely guarded secrets in all of churchdom that is not widely known.....so buckle up!!!here it is...I know I'm gonna catch it here for this one statement.....But!!!..HERE IT IS!!!!YOU READY!!!!NEWSFLASH!!!!!....MOST MUSICIANS DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU TELLING THEM THAT THE MUSIC IS TOO LOUD!!!!!THAT GOES IN ONE EAR.....AND COMES OUT THE OTHER!!!!THERE!!!!I SAID IT!!!!!NOW!!!!!for those of you Holy-Rollers that take everything so serious....I said it because,it adds a little comic brevity to such a heated topic...but it will also educate you at the same time.Most musicians brains are not like most other people...we have a different structure because of these gifts that we have...now most of you so-called educated folk will dismiss this,but when you get a chance.....go get you a mock-up,or diagram of the human brain and look closely at the area where the emotions and centers of behavior are located.Once you find that,look at how it is constructed,and doctors will tell you that those areas are larger in genuises,and gifted people involved in the arts,science,and other disciplines.Secondly.....musicians have very,very,large egos,which I do believed have to put into subjection by the Holy Spirit,bcause these A-type personalities can be detrimental ,if not put in check.Because we know we have a skill and gift set that not everybody has.......we have a tendecy to not listen to those who don't know what we know,or to those who cannot do what we do.Now my earlier point that I was going to allude to was this...I make it a habit to deal with Pastors and those whom he has appointed to deal with me in the Music Ministry...but as a Music Minister...it is UNDERSTOOD......that I will be calling the shots,because the Pastor has given me his ok to deal with it,and I do not adhere to anybody in any church,anywhere,that the Pastor has not made a liaison to me...which simply means that you do not,and will not,control,subvert,or subject me to any nonsense just because you are a Deacon.....I will respect you for your position and title.but at the same time,if you try to step on me,or go around me and do things that you shouldn't...you will be dealt with,so my remedy is going in...KNOW WHO IS,AND WHO ISN'T.If the Pastor says the Leslie is too loud.......then depending on the size of the building and the acoustics,then you make your adjustments based on those prerequsites.....the size of the Leslie has a great bearing on the sound also...sometimes Hammond organs are set-up different,some have more low end than high end...many different things can affect the output...sound quality differs from organ to organ...some Hammonds you can get more out of them,and some you can't...each application is different...but two or three people complaining about it being too loud,shoud not warrant a Deacon to take it upon himself to adjust the settings....that's not his place,nor should he be concerned about something that he has nothing to do with...so I am in full agreement with you on your solution to the problem that you had...and last but not least...CHURCH FOLK!!!!STOP PUTTING FLOWERS ON THE ORGAN AND THE ORGAN SPEAKER!!!IT IS NOT A PIECE OF FURNITURE THAT YOU ARE DECORATING AT YOUR HOUSE!!!

[James L. Brown]

Thanks for the kind words, everyone...if I can just say alittle more on the subject. Alot of times we don't really get a fair shake as musicians in the church body...and in some ways we are dealt with in ways simular to how the Pastor of the church is dealt with..I guess that is because we are in such a high focal position also.... I'll speak for myself so no one says that I am putting words in their mouths. When I look to play for a church I look at some specific factors...

1 I guess number one I am very concerned that I am coming to a church that is rightly diving the Word of God
2 That the congregation is friendly and inviting..nothing worst than going somewhere feeling like a outsider.
3 Is the Pastor that I am going to play for easily accessable or do I need a a membership in the VIP club.(whatever)
4 How does the church look ? is it well kept or is everything falling off the hinges...need some pride about your surroundings,first impressions are everything.
5 Is there enough going on in the church to keep me involved and my family if the needs arise (youth, women, men, ect..)
6 How much time is going to be required of me and will I have some time to just relax or prepare effeciently for my duties
7 Does the Pastor hold the leadership of the church accountable for their conduct or are there alot of chiefs and no indians
8 Does the Pastor support the music ministry in a way that promotes unity and harmony and growth we need a pastor that understands that it takes some monetary sacrifice in order to get your music department where you want them to be for instance...good sound systems (bad mics hinder the ears..lol) good monitors (nothing worse than not being able to hear what I am singing..) Sound personel that understand the concept of team work and not work against the music ministry in order to acheive an enjoyable Worship experience, Spiritual advisor that will help with the Minister of music to maintain a level of accountability spiritually so that we not get caught up just singing and playing but living what we sing as well, clinics or workshops that can be hosted by the church twice a year would be great but atleast once a year for reinforcement on certain music principals and basic theory knowledge, it's ashame we have hymnals and no one can read them (just looking at the words is not it...lol)
9 Who am I accountable to ...I don't need twelve telling me what one person can tell me (eveybody seems to know what the Pastor wants but him..lol)
10 Will I have the backing support of the Pastor when I need to make some tuff decision either concerning the music staff or the volunteer choir members...or will I just get bumped back and forth with no help.

Now mind you these are just some of the things that I am thinking of off the top of my head, Now acourse we must discuss salary and benefits and things like that but Pastors please remember that we need vacation time and sick pay also you should not make a musician work all year with no time to recuperate we need to get away just like you all when you take a month or two off and if you are one of the churches that honors your musician with an appreciation service then honor the person and not make them work while they are being honored...they would like to just sit and look pretty too..lol (if that is possible) and one of the things that troubles me alot is when churches go out of town and make me pay for stuff like a seat on the bus, hotel, gas or like banquet tickets that i have to play at or say that you volunteer our choir to sing a a function that charges people to attend, I just just think that if i have to go and work at a function then my fee's should be handled by my employer and it shouldn't be looked at any different beacuse my employer just happens to be a church, While most people think that it isn't a job, I beg to differ, especially when on one hand you will dock my pay for being late or keep attendance or make me sign a W-9 form if you are going to treat me like we are in the corporate world then be fair all the way around. If my major income is coming from the church I should be able to claim my income (right) what if I wanted to get a car? or a house ? or something...and when it came time for me to prove my income I have nothing to give them...I'm telling yall the structure of the employment aspect of how churches deal with the musician staff has got to be improved, and alot of churches require that you have all this training and degrees before they will even consider you for a assignment, but I say to you for those who don't have it but have the ability to acheive it are you willing to be patient enough to help them grow in to what you desire...some of us have not been afforded the opportunity to get all the schooling that we desire...but I will say that experience should not be overlooked either..there are alot of things the classroom can not teach you....bottom line we all desire success but our approach is different there is no one way to achieve it but there is one God to help us get there...can I get a witness?..lol

[Krishunna Pearson]

I am in the music ministry in my church and i haven't ever given much thought to being paid for what i do. but I don't see anything wrong with that.
i just feel music ministry is about leading people into the presence of the Lord. The musician should first be willing to do what they do because they love the Lord and they love the people they are leading.
The musician should be submitted to spiritual authority, attending church regularly and growing in the things of God.
This is just me but i think that pay for being a musician should come after serving in that area for free. It should come as a reward from God himself. There is nothing wrong with going to other churches to play even for pay, but ministry should always be done from a heart of greatfulness and servanthood.
A music minister should be grounded in the things of the Lord and held accountable to his or her spiritual father even for the things that they do at other churches.
A music minister should be so committed that his or her pastor will have the authority and permission to stop him or her from playing at the local church and also at any other church.
I don't think ministry can be done effectively without accountability and responsibility, a musician should have to give an account for their spiritual lives , because going before God's people is spiritual warfare and breakthroughs and deliverance are on the line.
Talent and skill won't breakthrough the gates of hell, however a heart truely committed to God and full of the anointing will and that is what music ministry is all about.
Creating an atmosphere where the people can feel God and receive their healing. No matter how good you play or sing, it still takes the power of God and He won;t bestow His power on just anyone.God bless

[Min. Tullyvan]

Hello Miss Pearson, God bless you with all your abilities and generosities.

Consider this: Whether it be 1 year or 31 years from now, you are teaching the saints how to mistreat future musicians. They should give you something for your time and service. If you then want to take it and give it to the single mother who has no job, that would be a blessing. If you wanted to give it back for a specific fund or purpose, that would be a blessing. But as we bless the house of the Lord, it is in good order to be blessed as well. Start a scholorship fund for musically inclined youth.

Years from now, some dedicated musician will have to explain and educate uninformed saints because of your actions. It's fine to offer discounts, but never for free. It is a proven principle that people [tithers] will give if they know the money is being handled correctly. Part of managing the cost of ministry obligations is being a good stewards which is something that is taught by the pastors.

I pray for you concerning the day that you're forced to experience a new pastor. You may not be so submissive. But until then, do all you that can as unto the Lord. Blessings

[Krishunna Pearson]

Min Marshall
Thank you for all that you said. I don't want you to misunderstand I don't think there is anything wrong with musicians receiving pay for what they do. Quite the contrary I feel that if someone is so gifted and anointed it would be a blessing to make a living doing what they love to do. The bible says that a person skilled would serve before kings and not ordinary people, so I think it is biblical for people to be blessed in the area they serve. I just feel that the most important aspect is the musicians heart. It should not be done just for pay it should be first and foremost service for God unto his people. Respectfully speaking, I do not feel there will be a day when i will experience another pastor, and if i did i would be submissive to him. I am a Woman of God with a prayer life, so i do these things out of reverence for God and his word. Not because man says i should. Thank you for the things you said. God Bless