Adam and Eve...Bro Watson :-)

[newview]

This relates to the other thread/discussion about 'Adam ruling over Eve'

Here's an excerpt from what the author of the thread stated:
...If they were in a state of innocence and this is even a state taught and acknowledged by the Church then, one why did God punish Adam, and why even so harshly?...

My response:
Because Adam was her head.
The woman was made FOR Adam - the man.


Bro Watson this was your response:
Newview,
Adam was not her "head" before the Fall. The fact that Eve's "husband" was to have rule over her (Genesis 3:16),was a curse, and that curse became effective after the Fall.


My response:
I see what you are saying Bro Watson. But wasnt she made for him NOT him for her.


Your response:
Yes, she was made as a help meet for Adam because all the rest of the creation had mates with the exception of Adam. Adam was lonely before Eve came along. So God put Adam under divine anesthesia, extracted a rib, stitched up the wound, made a woman, and brought her to the man.

In my mind, I don't think that God, when he brought the woman to Adam, slid her under him, or placed her behind Adam. No! I believe that God brought the newly made woman to Adam and placed her in front of him so that he could see her. Equality! That's what I'm talking about. I wish that I could have seen Adam's face when woke up and saw Eve standing there. That must have been quite a sight to behold.

And now this is my understanding as it was explained to me that The whole idea of headship is based upon the order of creation.
From the beginning he was her head because of the creation order - thats why Paul used it as an illustration in I Corinthians. Thusly having NOTHING to do with the curse.

What do you think, Brother Watson?

[James Pierce]

The husband ruling over the wife as the head is still in play, because even after the resurrection of Yahushua, that command was still in place. Wives are to submit to their husbands as to Yahuah.

[newview]

Bro James, yeah I know. I think Brother Watson may also - but the query was about WHEN this all began.
Was it BEFORE the Fall or AFTER.

Brother Watson says that it was BECAUSE of the Fall. But from further discussion and looking over the scriptures - it seems to me that Adam being her head was indeed BEFORE.

What do you think. It was just apart of creation order or something else?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Technically speaking James, what you are speaking of and the curse of Genesis 3:16 are totally different. Genesis 3:16 is a curse that led to incidents like what Lot did, and what a Levite did similar to Lot in Judges 19. What Apostle Paul spoke of was not from the curse, but from willful submission. Likewise, the husband is to willfully submit to his wife, or has that been over looked?

Ephesians 5:21 "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God."

[newview]

"Likewise, the husband is to willfully submit to his wife, or has that been over looked?
Ephesians 5:21 "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God."...

Amen.
And yet he is her head...she is not his.

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

It is God's Divine order that Adam, the man is the head, He was created first.

Adam, the life giving one was created from him for him, as God saw it was not good that man be alone.

Adam, the man, saw bone of his bone, Flesh of HIS flesh and they submitted to one another, (co-workers in the garden) to multiply the earth.

After sin, her submission belonged to him, In Christ the submission is restored to each other

[newview]

"...Adam, the man, saw bone of his bone, Flesh of HIS flesh and they submitted to one another, (co-workers in the garden) to multiply the earth..."


You Sister, actually that sounds rather romantic... :-)

But can you provide the scriptures that tells us that
"while in the garden Adam submitted to Eve" besides when Adam followed her into sin being that the devil had deceived Eve.

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

Creation as a whole is romantic to me Newview;

The facts are that even before the fall, God had established responsibility, the male headship/leadership not as an indication of superiority of Adam over Eve, but for God-glorifying responsibility. 50/50 is a house divided, someone must be charged with responsibility.


In the partnership of the two equal human beings in Eden prior to the fall, Adam was called upon to exercise spiritual leadership for the family. This resulted in complete harmony until sin.

satan stole the original harmony in their relationship. In the creation God had made Adam-the life giving one, the equal of the first Adam. Had they remained obedient to God they would still be in harmony.

That is why satan tempted Eve instead of Adam, who had been charged with the leadership responsibility Both of them were responsible for the fall Eve usurping Adam's headship, and Adam failing to exercise his responsibility to protect his wife

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

What Apostle Paul spoke of was not from the curse, but from willful submission. Likewise, the husband is to willfully submit to his wife, or has that been over looked?

Ephesians 5:21 "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God."

Bro. Trevor, your statement above shows me that before the Fall, Adam & Eve willfully submitted to each other as in the sense of maintaining harmony in their marriage. Adam was the head simply because of the order of their creation. But, because they submitted to each other in harmony, there was no need for God to state such a commandment in Genesis 3:16 . . ."he shall rule over thee."

When sin entered in, the script was flipped and they were in a fallen state which means they were not going to always submit to one another in harmony. And because God knew this, it was necessary for Him to make this commandment.

Think about it. We, too, struggle with submission from time to time, whether intentional or unintentional.

[newview]

"...Bro. Trevor, your statement above shows me that before the Fall, Adam & Eve willfully submitted to each other as in the sense of maintaining harmony in their marriage. Adam was the head simply because of the order of their creation. But, because they submitted to each other in harmony, there was no need for God to state such a commandment in Genesis 3:16 . . ."he shall rule over thee."...."

I sort of agree with you but after the Fall - why do you think God commanded that Adam would rule over his woman and did not add that Eve would rule over her man?
What was the Lord'spoint?

One thing I do see is that the man was the head before and after the fall because of the creation order.

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

Well newview, as I stated earlier, God's divine order of creation was established when He created Adam first then Eve. The Fall did not reverse the order of creation. God's commandment to Eve was to reiterate what was already established except, when they were in the stage of innocence, Adam did not have to actually "rule over Eve" since she willingly submitted to him. However, in a Fallen state, she is not going to always submit, therefore, the commandment was given as a reminder of her position as the wife of Adam. And even after that, she was going to have to be reminded of this more often than she could have anticipated because the flesh was now in control.

[newview]

"... Adam did not have to actually "rule over Eve" since she willingly submitted to him. However, in a Fallen state, she is not going to always submit, therefore, the commandment was given as a reminder of her position as the wife of Adam. And even after that, she was going to have to be reminded of this more often than she could have anticipated because the flesh was now in control."

I can see that.
Because if you notice the language of Gen 3 - “thy desire shall be to thy husband” was the same as when the Lord was speaking to Cain and told/warned him that
“But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door;
IT DESIRES TO HAVE YOU, BUT YOU MUST MASTER IT."

So now look at Gen 3 again as the Lord speaks to Eve:
THY DESIRE SHALL BE TO THY HUSBAND, AND HE SHALL RULE OVER THEE

-->Sin wanted to master Cain - he had to master it.
-->Eve would wanted to master Adam - he had to have the rule over her.

[newview]

...In Christ, women are as fully the heirs of salvation and the sons of God as men. The events of Pentecost also demonstrate that men and women are equally members of Messiah's new age...

Most definately.
And yet in Christ the man is the head of the woman. Any other order than that - is out of order - because it was so from the beginning. And there being nothing debase or ugly about the order. :-)