WHO SAYS A WOMAN CAN PASTOR?

[newview]

I am sorry the the other thread was closed down for replies but as Sister Williams said:

***"...Deborah did, for she was in a position of leadership..."

So is Hillary Clinton. But she can't lead men in the church.
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***"...Priscilla did, for she along with her husband, was in a position of leadership..."

That was not a formal setting. They were discussing the Lord and indeed explaining for his benefit surely, but it was not a church service. I don't see where they were having services.
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***"...Can a woman teach a man? A wife does. She teaches him who she is, and what the two can learn from each other. She teaches him how to love her from the inside out...."

Not in a formal setting - like during church services.
As far as a wife teaching her man how to love her from the inside out and the top down - wonderful -Have at it!
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***"...Ministry is leadership, pastoring or not..."

Really? Because a person ministers to you - that means they are your leader?
Wow - tell that to Jesus.
Speaking of the women at the cross the bible says----> (Who also, when He (Jesus) was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto Him;) and many other women which came up with Him unto Jerusalem.
Do you really believe they were preaching to Jesus or teaching Him ANYTHING?

To minister means to be a servant, attendant, domestic, to serve, wait upon. Ministering can be serving the congregation by leading them but not in every case.
There are scriptures all day long on how the women in the Body of Christ were are to minister.
It even tells women that they are allowed to teach but with peramiters.

[newview]

"...Because the vote is split, you have women who actually believe that women are biblically not to pastor..."

How dare they believe on Jesus as the scriptures say!!

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

however Neiwview, they have interpreted the scriptures wrong??? because of lack of studying. As a woman, I'm sure you have been in some type of position that you know that you do well,and God has gifted you to do it, surpassing a few men's ability to do it.

I'm blessed, I love to preach God's Word, I also love to hear my husband preach his word, however he is a wise man, that will tell you quickly that is not his gift or calling, it's my wifes, as the SCRIPTURES STATE.

[newview]

I think you have a calling to teach and to testify. I am glad that the Lord has given this calling. May His name be blessed forever.
But I think where you veer from the center of God's will is if you are using that gift in a way that He has instructed women not to.

Do you teach younger women how to be good woman, mother, wife, nurturer, sister of the Body and daughter of Sara?
You do?....that's well too.
That is such a wonderful calling - how would you have time or even want to be up in guys faces?
If you do have time to be in guys faces - then maybe you should be doubling down and spread your calling among even more young girls.
Believe me - today young girls out here think it empowers them to spread their legs instead of keeping them closed. They think its empowering to be loud and crass instead of having a quiet and shamefaced spirit which is beautiful to the Lord. They think that caring for their husband and respecting him as the head of the household is somehow demeaning instead of what a real holy ghost filled would be doing - is exactly that.

So I hope that you do use your gift to its fullest. God bless you.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Newview, you only speak of one part of ministry. Since it is true that not all male preachers are gifted for "men's ministry" type of stuff, so to it speaks for female preachers.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

The office of the leader of the Church is not something that you gain democratically, but Theocratically.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Yes it is ridiculous! Fortunately, I will not be doing ministry in such a manner.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

LOL!! You aint hardly lyin! I didn't know you were one for starting up a new Ministry.

I TOLD YOU THAT YOU WERE MORE APOSTOLIC THAN YOU THINK!!

[newview]

Paul told Tim to remember the ordinances that you were taught.

Brother Watson,

You said:
I implore you to show me one, just one passage of Scripture in the Bible that clearly states that a woman cannot pastor. Can you show me something other than the Pauline writings?

I say:
Why not Paul? God was speaking through Paul.
Not only in Corinth but as in ALL the congregations of the saints. It was not local or cultural it was for ALL the congregations of the saints.
Speaking of the assembled church, Paul , in his pastoral letter to Timothy, he was laying down instructions on how to run the church. We know the setting is one in which men lift “holy hands” to pray, and they do so “without anger or quarreling,” which implies that Paul is thinking of them in A GROUP, when they get together as in an assembly.
Timothy was a young pastor in Ephesus and Paul, writing him, telling him to teach no other doctrine and exhorts him in church practice. He is outlining what is proper conduct and correct doctrine and what is not. He’s telling Timothy “how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God” (1 Timothy 3:15).
So Paul gives instructions on picking elders and instructions for the women (remember God is speaking through Paul):
“In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
In all of his instructions there are none for the ordination of women in the church to be leaders. Why?
Look at Adam and Eve. In the garden, Satan spoke to Eve , attempting to get her to take responsibility for leading the family into sin, and changing the order that God had established at Creation. Flip the script - so to speak.
The equality of men and women in the Body does not demand sameness in roles. Men and women each are intellectually equal but never the less there are differences in leanings and tilts or tendencies. But that’s OK because those distinguishing features work just fine with God’s desired effect in entrusting leadership in the BODY to men. Once again, the distinctions in masculine and feminine roles are ORDAINED by God from the beginning - BEFORE the Fall.

There is a saying a train always runs its freest and best when on a track.
God Almighty has a track and Paul laid it down. And plainly. And with simplicity.


You said:
Thirdly, I was wondering if you feel the same way about women's role in the job market. Do you feel that women can't be managers, CEO's etc? I'm asking because I have found that women, like yourself, who have problems with women assuming the pastoral role in the church, do not have problems with women assuming the top roles in the job market. Do you see a contradiction here?

I say:
No contradiction at all.
And I don’t have a problem with women having top roles in the job market.
Women can be managers and CEO’s of the most dynamic corporations.

You said:
Fourthly, If I said to you, hypothetically speaking, that you could not be a pastor of a church, you would agree with me 100%. Suppose I was the owner of several high end electronic stores, and I needed a President to run the whole business, because I'm ready to retire. Lets say that you are the most senior and most knowledgable person, male or female in the company, outside of myself. I now call you into my office and explain to you that you are the most qualified person for the position as President of Watson Industries. But the reason why I'm not recommending you for the position is because you are a woman, and that the President position is a man's role in this company. How would you react? Would you (A) Shake my hand, and say how grateful you are to have been considered for the position? (2) Sue the company for discrimination and gender bias?

I say:
You see God’s Church is ran the way He wants it ran and He left instructions on HOW to run it.
God is the Boss of His Church.
Now the owner/boss of Watson’s Industries runs his company the way he wants. If he wants to make a woman President - he can have at it. And Watson has his guidelines, qualifications and protocols for who he hires for which position.
Watson runs Watson’s Industries.
God runs the Body of Christ and it’s members. God gave much detail of what the qualifications of a leader was in His Churches.
And as far as women ministering - OF COURSE. They have roles that they are called to minister in. The problem is - THEY DON’T. THEY DON’T WANT TO.

You said:
Fifth, In most African-American churches, women make up about 80 percent of the congregation, but they hold about 4 percent of the top positions in the church. Do you see a problem with this picture? Would you tolerate such disparity in the job market?

I say:
According the scriptures ----> 0 % of the congregations of the God had NO women in pastoral positions.
According to the scriptures - it was a shame for a woman to be a speaker in any of the congregations of the saints. And I don’t have a problem with it because God is the captain of His ship. I would tolerate it and I would obey it with gladness.
I say again - Women and men indeed have equal value, however, different God-given roles.

Do you know Brother Watson, it is so sad today that pastors have to shy away from teaching that men are the head of anything - EVEN being the head in their marriages and ruler of their homes?…yet the man has to give an account for the conduct of his family. He cant even be an elder if he cant rule his house well.
But its very seldom taught. It should be.


You said:
Secondly, I would like to know why you believe that a female pastor is a sign of male weakness?

I am answering you on this second question last:

Because a strong male will not let a woman lead him. Its NOT God’s order for the Christian home and it’s NOT God’s order for God’s house.

A women is not have a dominating role or authoritarian role or controlling role. This would upset God’s order for the Church and for the home.
Scripturally, a woman must never place her authority over a man’s.

Some one once said: “Churches, over time, begin to reflect the values, personality, and leadership style of the servant leader pointing the way”

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Why cant Christians receive the WORD with gladness ?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

I agree with you to a point my friend. The thing I disagree with is that I believe that Paul was misunderstood regarding his stances on women in ministry. When talking to Apostle Timothy (no Newview, not a young Pastor like some Pastors say, but a young Apostle according to the very words of Paul), his words went very much so misunderstood by the uneducated. For example, I have asked time after time what the word usurp means, and people have used that word in error, locking females down from ministry. You say they need a Seminary education, well I say they need a SIMPLE EDUCATION FIRST! In the Book of Romans, he salutes more females than males, yet this is overlooked as if its a typo or something on his part!

Other than that, we are in total agreement, Bro Watson.

[newview]

"...I think that Paul's views of women's role/place in the church has caused more confusion through the centuries that unity..."

Only when it is not embraced.
Only when the love of the truth is not received.


"...Jesus never thought like Paul when it came to women,..."

Really?
Paul did not have the same mind that was in Christ Jesus?
Was not Paul an apostle to the gentiles - sent by God?
A holy apostle did not have the mind of Christ - but the women that weep in front of you do have the mind of Christ? These women that go against the very word of God based on some private revelation instead of using the Word of God as a straight-edged ruler to keep them in the center of God's very own will (so that they wont vere to the right or to the left) - think like Jesus but the Apostle Paul did not?


"...and that is why I believe that Paul never cites Jesus when he speaks of women."

When Paul commanded that women were not to speak he said:
If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

I think that sums it up pretty good that if anyone was to come along and insist on how spiritual they were and that women could indeed do the opposite of what the apostle told them then as Paul was being ignored - so would they.

How can anyone kick against that?

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

This is a good post Newview. There is the knowledge and understanding of the True and Living God in your post above. I congradulate you.

[Joseph Gill]

We really have to acknowledge that there are no scriptures that explicitly show women serving pastors, while there are several passages in the bible that seem to argue against such a development. Defenders and critics of women's pastorates usually end up debating the proper interpretations of these passages:

Genesis 2:18-25
Critics say the details of Eve's creation show that women should be considered subordinate to men. Defenders point out that the Hebrew term translated "help meet" or "helper" in verse 18 is often applied to God [as in Deut. 33:7] and does not itself signify subordination.

1 Corinthians 11:3-12
Critics see Paul's discourse as a confirmation of their understanding of the Genesis 2 passage. Defenders question Paul's meaning here--particularly, whether man's "headship" refers to origin rather than authority.

1 Corinthians 14:34-36
Critics are persuaded by the explicitness of the prohibition in these verses. Defenders usually postulate that Paul was addressing a problem specific to the Corinthian church.

1 Timothy 2:11-15
Critics again see the explicit language as definitive. Defenders again suspect Paul is addressing problems in local churches, and not making a universal prohibition.

1 Timothy 3:1-13
Critics refer to the contextual language of the passage: how Paul discusses these leadership positions as though they were filled by men. Defenders say that the passage may imply most leaders were male, but does not actually prohibit female leadership.

I lean toward the critic's reading of these passages myself, but I do think the examples of women in church offices in the bible should also be a guide to us. A "minister", Phoebe, is mentioned in scripture [Rom. 16:1]; a female apostle, Junia, is commended [Rom. 16:7]; it is said of two women, Euodia and Syntyche, that they were "fellow workers" with Paul
in the gospel, implying they too were evangelists [Phil. 4:2,3]. From the examples we have, it seems that in the early church women preached the gospel and served in the leadership structure. It is only a pastorate that seems indefensible.